RSV vs NRSV

Terry_Herrington · Sep 17, 2003

I was under the impression that the NRSV corrected the RSV in Isaiah 7:14 and changed "young woman" to "virgin."

I have not used either of these translations, however, in searching today on the web I found that the NRSV still uses "young woman."

If this is the case, why would anyone promote the NRSV as an improvement over the RSV.

mesly · Sep 17, 2003

Terry,

Here is a blurb on the NRSV from a website that I referenced in another thread:

2. The New Revised Standard Version (1989)
By 1989, the RSV was nearly 40 years old. A lot of things had changed in those 40 years. For one thing, several significant MS discoveries had been made. For another, the English language had undergone some important alterations.

In Psalm 50.9, the RSV had God say, “I will accept no bull from your house”! In 1952 English this meant that God would not accept any sacrifices, including bulls. But in 1989 “I will accept no bull” means something decidedly different. It was time to revise the revision once again.

English had changed in some other ways, too. No longer was “man” commonly understood to be a generic term that could include women. And all older translations used ‘man’ in this way; all older translations were gender exclusive. A new translation was needed—one that was current with the language.

Not only this, but it had become politically incorrect in some circles to use the generic “he” when referring to a mixed group. So, both because of language shifts and, in my view, cultural pressures, the NRSV became one of the first gender-inclusive translations of the Bible.

For example, in John 14.23, the old RSV records Jesus’ words this way: “If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.” The problem with this translation is that it excludes women in today’s English. And the Greek text does not exclude women—there is in fact no Greek word for man in this verse!

Now, an appropriate fix would be to render the verse, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.” This, in fact, best represents the meaning of the Greek.

But the NRSV views even that translation as gender-exclusive. It renders this verse as follows: “Those who love me will keep my word, and my Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.”

The problem with this rendering is that in order to avoid being politically incorrect, the NRSV has actually misrepresented the text. The point of the passage is the intimacy that both the Father and the Son can have with each one of us. By using the plural throughout, that one-on-one intimacy is wiped out.

In some other passages the meaning is changed in even more dramatic ways. In 1 Tim 3.2, e.g., instead of saying that the elder should be ‘husband of one wife’ the NRSV says that the elder should be ‘married only once.’ No longer is the requirement that an elder be a man found in the translation.

It is unfortunate that the NRSV has gone to such lengths to maintain a gender-inclusive rendering. However, it could have gone much, much further. When the NRSV was getting under way, one of the translators on the committee suggested that God be treated as a woman. If this suggestion had been approved, the Lord’s Prayer would have begun, “Our Mother who is in heaven”! The Great Commission would be: “Baptize them in the name of the Mother, the Son, and the Holy Spirit”!

Dr. Bruce Metzger, who was the chairman of the committee, dealt with this issue swiftly and decisively. Now, Dr. Metzger is a conservative Christian, and a diplomatic genius. He could sell ice cubes to eskimos; he could tell you to go to hell and make you look forward to the trip!

So he responded to this woman translator: “Yes, I believe we should call God a ‘she.’ … And we should call the devil a she, too!” That was the end of the discussion.

Overall, the NRSV is an excellent translation whose only real flaw is its gender-inclusive thrust. Not only does this change the meaning of the text in some places, but it also is bad English style.
Click to expand...

You can read the whole article at: http://www.bible.org/docs/soapbox/4versions.htm

Overall, I wouldn't say that it is an improvement, but rather a "politically correct" version. I have no interest in ever using it.

Taufgesinnter · Sep 17, 2003

Originally posted by Terry_Herrington:
I was under the impression that the NRSV corrected the RSV in Isaiah 7:14 and changed "young woman" to "virgin."

I have not used either of these translations, however, in searching today on the web I found that the NRSV still uses "young woman."

If this is the case, why would anyone promote the NRSV as an improvement over the RSV.
Click to expand...

I suppose for other reasons than the fact that almah does mean "young woman." The LXX rendered it parthenos, which only means "virgin," which is how it is quoted in the NT. Thus the translation is accurate and still does not deny the virgin birth.

mesly · Sep 17, 2003

Taufgesinnter, I think I remember you stating in a previous message thread that you use the NRSV. Am I correct (or is my memory failing me )? If so, could you tell us why you chose that translation? Just curious.

Thanks,
Michael

Terry_Herrington · Sep 17, 2003

Taufgesinnter:

I have always heard that the real objection to the RSV was almost totally connected with this verse. I assumed that the NSRV had changed it since "alma" can mean either "young woman" or "virgin," or so I have read.

I really do not have a problem with either the RSV or the NRSV. I agree that they are both correct in choosing "young woman" instead of "virgin" because two places in the New Testament Mary is called a virgin. This pretty well rules out any attempt to deny the virgin birth.

"Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel" (which means, God with us). Matt. 1:23

26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. Luke 1:27

TomVols · Sep 17, 2003

End the debate on RSV vs. NRSV...pick the ESV!

Terry_Herrington · Sep 17, 2003

I'm sure the ESV is a fine translation, but I use the NIV primarily. I do, however, like the way the RSV reads in many places. Maybe I will take a look at the ESV.

Ransom · Sep 17, 2003

Terry_Herrington said:

I really do not have a problem with either the RSV or the NRSV. I agree that they are both correct in choosing "young woman" instead of "virgin" because two places in the New Testament Mary is called a virgin. This pretty well rules out any attempt to deny the virgin birth.

There is another important consideration here: To what or whom was Isaiah referring? The literal fulfillment of Isa. 7:14 s not Mary. The text says of the child this young woman will conceive:

For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted. The LORD will bring upon you and on your people and ancestral house such days as have not come since the day that Ephraim departed from Judah - the king of Assyria. (Isa. 7:16-17 NRSV)
Click to expand...

This apparently is a reference back to:

In the days of Ahaz son of Jotham son of Uzziah, King Rezin of Aram and King Pekah son of Remaliah of Israel went up to attack Jerusalem, but could not mount an attack against it. When the house of David heard that Aram had allied itself with Ephraim, the heart of Ahaz and the heart of his people shook as the trees of the forest shake before the wind. (7:1-2 NRSV)
Click to expand...

So the birth of this child Immanuel is given as a sign to Ahaz that the end of his current trouble with Aram and Israel was imminent. This prophecy, furthermore, was literally fulfilled by the birth of Isaiah's own son by the usual means:

And I went to the prophetess, and she conceived and bore a son. Then the LORD said to me, Name him Maher-shalal-hash-baz; for before the child knows how to call "My father" or "My mother," the wealth of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria will be carried away by the king of Assyria. (Isa. 8:3-4 NRSV)
Click to expand...

Isaiah's wife the prophetess is a type of Mary, who of course was a virgin when she conceived and bore her child Immanuel, the Lord Jesus. So do you translate almah in Isa. 7:14 according to its literal meaning or its typological? This conservative Christian isn't convinced the RSV/NRSV folks haven't got it right.

Terry_Herrington · Sep 18, 2003

Ransom, you seem to disprove your own argument. You first say that the primary fulfillment of Isa 7:14 is concerning Ahaz. I agree with this. You then say that the conservatives are not sure that the RSV has done it right.

Ransom · Sep 18, 2003

No, I said this conservative Christian, i.e. me, is not sure the RSV folks haven't done it right. I tend to agree with the RSV/NRSV rendering.

Taufgesinnter · Sep 18, 2003

I'm not sure whether I can specify exactly why I "chose" the NRSV, since I don't use it very often. I prefer the NIV and frequently use the KJV. However, I have a whole slew of versions I use for reference and comparison, and the NRSV is among them.

mesly · Sep 18, 2003

Originally posted by Taufgesinnter:
I'm not sure whether I can specify exactly why I "chose" the NRSV, since I don't use it very often. I prefer the NIV and frequently use the KJV. However, I have a whole slew of versions I use for reference and comparison, and the NRSV is among them.
Click to expand...

Sorry, the more I think about it, I believe it was someone else here on the BB that used the NRSV exclusively. I am sorry about confusing the two of you.

Taufgesinnter · Sep 18, 2003

Sure thing. No problemo.

Jesus is Lord · Sep 19, 2003

Just stick with the good ol´ KJV!

Sorry, I just thought a statement like that was missing Just Kidding!

RSV vs NRSV

Terry_Herrington New Member

mesly Member

Taufgesinnter New Member

mesly Member

Terry_Herrington New Member

TomVols New Member

Terry_Herrington New Member

Ransom Active Member

Terry_Herrington New Member

Ransom Active Member

Taufgesinnter New Member

mesly Member

Taufgesinnter New Member

Jesus is Lord New Member

Useful Searches

RSV vs NRSV

Terry_Herrington New Member

mesly Member

Taufgesinnter New Member

mesly Member

Terry_Herrington New Member

TomVols New Member

Terry_Herrington New Member

Ransom Active Member

Terry_Herrington New Member

Ransom Active Member

Taufgesinnter New Member

mesly Member

Taufgesinnter New Member

Jesus is Lord New Member