The questionable Pretribulation Rapture

npetreley · Sep 13, 2003

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
2. Great tribulation
3. Signs of the Day of the Lord
4. (from Revelation: the sealing of the 144,000)

That doesn't make any sense because the
144,000 are sealed to protect them from the
effects of the Tribulation Period.
You have them being sealed when the
Great Tribulation Period is over ???

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You can't get around the plain language of the Bible. The section starting with Matthew 24:29 is a clear parallel to the passage starting at Revelation 6:12. So you know that the chronology at Revelation 6:12 is such that it takes place immediately after the tribulation of those days.

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
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Here is the parallel passage:

12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
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Note the unquestionable order now...

Revelation 7:1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
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You can't get a more clear chronology than that, plus you can see very clearly that what is about to happen is wrath as poured out upon the earth by the appointed angels. This is not great tribulation by those who oppress the saints, this is the wrath of God.

Now look what happens next...

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God...
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And then one of the elders says to John, "Who are these people?" And John basically answers, "Dang if I know." After which the elder replies...

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"
14And I said to him, "Sir, you know."
So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation
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There you have it. The raptured saints. The ones who have been raptured out of the great tribulation before the wrath begins.

Ed Edwards · Sep 13, 2003

Npetreley: " The section starting with Matthew 24:29
is a clear parallel to the passage starting
at Revelation 6:12."

No way.

Revelation 6:15b (KJV1769):
... and every mountain and island were moved out
of their places.

This earthquake is like 15.0 (one million times
as much energy as a 9.0 earthquake, like one
million killer earthquakes at once). It happens
at the beginning of the Tribulation Period.

Revelation 16:20 (KJV1769):
And every island fled away, and the
mountains were not found.

This earthquake is like 18.0 (one thousand times
as strong as the earthquake at the beginning
of the Tribulation Period) This earthquake
happens near the end of the Tribulation Period.

In the first earthquake, some people think they
are suffering "The Wrath of the Lamb" (Rev 6:17)
In the second earthquake, people are suffering
the WRATH OF GOD (Rev 16:19).

How do people get these two earthquakes mixed up?
How do people say that Revelation is cyclic
when it is pretty much linear front to end?

Peace!

Ed Edwards · Sep 13, 2003

There is one resurrection,
the resurrection through and by Jesus.

But here is an essay (well, a list) about
five resurrections:

\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

Five Resurrections
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
Tribulation: AKA: Yisarel passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
Tribulation: AKA: Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
Tribulation: AKA: Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive

How to get on God's list:

Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8

2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 17 July 2002;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the beginning of eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised before
the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

Ed Edwards · Sep 13, 2003

Brother Npetrealey: maybe you should
slipinto hpyertext markup language (HTML).
If your statement was red, then red and large,
then red and very large -- wouldn't that be
better than just a simple repeat of the same
statement?

First, a personal question:
do you believe in the eternal security of
the believer? I reaed that doctrine to
mean once Jesus saves us, we stay saved
dependant only on Jesus and not dependant
on waht we do. Thatn you for your short answer to
the question. "Yes" or "No" will be sufficient
(even though i'm always tempted to give a
full "yes, but ... " or "no, but ... " opinion
(I don't want to derail rearby topics on
OSAS or not-OSAS)

Anyway, our point of disagreement
on the understanding of Matthew 24:31 hinges on the
initial "and". YOu seem to suggest it is a
time sequence "bullet". I say it is a major
opurline element. Back in Matthew 24:3,
the disciples asked 3 questions. Jesus
answered them NOT in time occuring sequence but
in question asked sequence.

Thus Matthew 24:31 starts with an "and" that
means the beginning of Jesus' answer to the
disciples third question: "What is the sign
of the end of the age (AEON in Greek)

The Gentile Age ends at the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection. Matthew 24:31-44
is a description of the end of the Gentile Age.

The disciples asked "What is the sign of the
of the end of the age". Jesus says there is no
sign, the end of the age, the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection is signless. Just as things
were going along normal in the days of Noah, until
the flood. Noah's ark was what God used to
take Noah and his family away from the destruction
that ended the anti-flood age.
Jus as things were going normal in Sodom until
God took Lot and his daughters away from
the destruction without sign before.

Now, if Jesus had wanted to tell us we would be
safe in the middle of the tribulation period
from the AC, would He not have used as an example
the 3 Hebrew Children who were kept safe through
the midst of the fire?
Now, if Jesus had wanted to tell us we would be
safe in the middle of the tribulation period
from the AC, would He not have used as an
example Daniel protected in the midst of the Lion's
Den?

If i ever start a band i'm going to call it
"Daniel and the Lion's Din"

Tim too · Sep 13, 2003

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Revelation 6:15b (KJV1769):
... and every mountain and island were moved out
of their places.

This earthquake is like 15.0 (one million times
as much energy as a 9.0 earthquake, like one
million killer earthquakes at once). It happens
at the beginning of the Tribulation Period.

Revelation 16:20 (KJV1769):
And every island fled away, and the
mountains were not found.

This earthquake is like 18.0 (one thousand times
as strong as the earthquake at the beginning
of the Tribulation Period) This earthquake
happens near the end of the Tribulation Period.

In the first earthquake, some people think they
are suffering "The Wrath of the Lamb" (Rev 6:17)
In the second earthquake, people are suffering
the WRATH OF GOD (Rev 16:19).
Click to expand...

Ed,

I thought that the standard pretribber views the breaking of the seals in Revelation 6 as the starting of the great tribulation. Yet you say the tribulation begins 15 verses later. Of the earthquake in chapter 6 verse 15, you say, "It happens at the beginning of the Tribulation Period."

How in the world can this post even be consistent with the pretrib view?

In the love of Christ,
Tim

Ed Edwards · Sep 13, 2003

Tim too: "I thought that the standard pretribber
views the breaking of the seals in Revelation 6
as the starting of the great tribulation."

You could call me a "liberal" and i'd hardly flinch
Please don't call me "standard pretribber".
Thank you.

I said before:
This earthquake is like 15.0 (one million times
as much energy as a 9.0 earthquake, like one
million killer earthquakes at once). It happens
at the beginning of the Tribulation Period.

I should have said:
This earthquake is like 15.0 (one million times
as much energy as a 9.0 earthquake, like one
million killer earthquakes at once). It happens
near the beginning of the Tribulation Period.

Tim too · Sep 13, 2003

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
The disciples asked "What is the sign of the
of the end of the age". Jesus says there is no
sign, the end of the age, the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection is signless. Just as things
were going along normal in the days of Noah, until
the flood. Noah's ark was what God used to
take Noah and his family away from the destruction
that ended the anti-flood age.
Jus as things were going normal in Sodom until
God took Lot and his daughters away from
the destruction without sign before.
Click to expand...

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!
Please show me where in this passage Jesus says there is no sign.

As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 "Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?" 5 Jesus said to them: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 6 Many will come in my name, claiming, `I am he,' and will deceive many. 7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains. 9 "You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. 10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. 11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit. "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 "When you see `the abomination that causes desolation' standing where it does not belong--let the reader understand--then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let no one on the roof of his house go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16 Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 17 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now--and never to be equaled again. 20 If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. 21 At that time if anyone says to you, `Look, here is the Christ!' or, `Look, there he is!' do not believe it. 22 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time. Mark 13:4-23 NIV
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I posted the whole passage just in case someone doesn’t want to go get their Bible. The whole passage is full of signs. I put them in bold for you. Notice that Jesus says He has told us everything ahead of time.

24 "But in those days, following that distress, "`the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' 26 "At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens. Mark 13:24-27 NIV
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Here are the signs of His coming in the heavens and the gathering of His elect. “Elect” is a term used almost exclusively for NT saints.

"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 29 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. 30 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. Mark 13:28-31 NIV
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Rather than the Lord telling us that there are no signs, it seems to me that He gives plenty and tells us to watch for them.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

Tim too · Sep 13, 2003

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
I said before:
This earthquake is like 15.0 (one million times
as much energy as a 9.0 earthquake, like one
million killer earthquakes at once). It happens
at the beginning of the Tribulation Period.

I should have said:
This earthquake is like 15.0 (one million times
as much energy as a 9.0 earthquake, like one
million killer earthquakes at once). It happens
near the beginning of the Tribulation Period.

Click to expand...

Either way this happens after the great tribulation according to the pretrib view. It is illogical and just bad exegesis to try to make this out as anything other than the beginning of the wrath of God.

Where are the men crying out in fear in of God in the previous 11 verses. They are not because tribulation is at the hands of the world. However when the Lord appears after the signs in the heavens they are quaking in their booties.

I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand? Revelation 6:12-17 NIV

Sound pretty clear to me.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

Ed Edwards · Sep 13, 2003

Tim too: "Please show me where in this passage Jesus says there is no sign. "

That passage is chock full of signs.
Recall that Matthew 24-25, Mark 13,
and Luke 17 are parallel passages
called the Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD).
The destruction of the Temple is respleat
with signs (such as those you showed above).
But that has already happened.
The Second Coming is preceeded by signs,
the biggest of which is the 7-year
long Tribulation Period.

The pretribulation rapture/resurreciton
event is different from the Second Coming
event, as i showed above. It is the
pretriublation rapture/resurrection
event that is signless. So here is you
challenge: Read Matthew 24:31-44
and the parallel passages in Mark 13 and
Luke 17 and tell me the sign of the
rapture. If you find one, you make Paul
a liar (I Thess 5:2).

Ed Edwards · Sep 13, 2003

The silence of the anti-pretrib rapture
folk about Acts 2:19-20 is making
my ears hurt Come on guys,
what about the beginning of the LAST DAYS
in 0033AD which was One Thousand,
Nine Hundred and Seventy years ago.
What about the signs in the heavens
then? Your silence is speaking volumes
here.

Ed Edwards · Sep 13, 2003

Tim too: "“Elect” is a term used almost exclusively for NT saints."

Nearly always.
But here is an exception that
speaks of the Messiah. Here are three exceptions
where "elect" speaks of physcial Jewish Israeli
elect saints.

Isa 42:1 (KJV1769):
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect,
in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him:
he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Isa 45:4 (KJV1769):
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect,
I have even called thee by thy name:
I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Isa 65:9 (KJV1769):
And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob,
and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains:
and mine elect shall inherit it, and my
servants shall dwell there.

Isa 65:22 (KJV1769):
They shall not build, and another inhabit;
they shall not plant, and another eat:
for as the days of a tree are the days of my people,
and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

Learn it now:
2 sets of elect:
1. mostly gentile born-again Christian elect saints
2. Jewish Israeli elect saints

2 sets of saints:
1. mostly gentile born-again Christian elect saints
2. Jewish Israeli elect saints

2 churches:
1. mostly gentile born-again Christian elect saints
2. Jewish Israeli elect saints

And these all become one in Christ at the Second Coming,
not at the pretribulation rapture starting out
the Tribulation Period.

Tim too · Sep 13, 2003

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
The pretribulation rapture/resurreciton
event is different from the Second Coming
event, as i showed above. It is the
pretriublation rapture/resurrection
event that is signless. So here is you
challenge: Read Matthew 24:31-44
and the parallel passages in Mark 13 and
Luke 17 and tell me the sign of the
rapture. If you find one, you make Paul
a liar (I Thess 5:2).

Click to expand...

Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 NIV
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The day that will come as a thief in the night is the day of the Lord. The only people who are going to be overtaken by it are those who are not looking for it. This passage speaks of the same event with the perspectives of how the Lord will be seen. Bad for apostates and unbelievers, GOOD for us.

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
The silence of the anti-pretrib rapture
folk about Acts 2:19-20 is making
my ears hurt Come on guys,
what about the beginning of the LAST DAYS
in 0033AD which was One Thousand,
Nine Hundred and Seventy years ago.
What about the signs in the heavens
then? Your silence is speaking volumes
here.
Click to expand...

These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 "`In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. 19 I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. 21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.' Acts 2:17-21 NIV
Click to expand...

There is no problem with this passage and my theology. The tribulation began when Jesus left this earth. It will increase in intensity and wickedness reaching its peak with the last antichrist. Jesus described its increasing intensity as the birth pains of a woman. Matthew 24:8

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Tim too: "“Elect” is a term used almost exclusively for NT saints."

Nearly always.
But here is an exception that
speaks of the Messiah. Here are three exceptions
where "elect" speaks of physcial Jewish Israeli
elect saints.

Isa 42:1 (KJV1769):
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect,
in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him:
he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Isa 45:4 (KJV1769):
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect,
I have even called thee by thy name:
I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Isa 65:9 (KJV1769):
And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob,
and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains:
and mine elect shall inherit it, and my
servants shall dwell there.

Isa 65:22 (KJV1769):
They shall not build, and another inhabit;
they shall not plant, and another eat:
for as the days of a tree are the days of my people,
and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

Learn it now:
2 sets of elect:
1. mostly gentile born-again Christian elect saints
2. Jewish Israeli elect saints

2 sets of saints:
1. mostly gentile born-again Christian elect saints
2. Jewish Israeli elect saints

2 churches:
1. mostly gentile born-again Christian elect saints
2. Jewish Israeli elect saints

And these all become one in Christ at the Second Coming,
not at the pretribulation rapture starting out
the Tribulation Period.

Click to expand...

The word "elect" appears 20 times in the KJV, 4 times in Isaiah and 16 times in the NT.

None of the New Testament references refer to these other meanings you have imported from the Old Testament. Three references in the OT is not enough to prop the pretrib rapture.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

Ed Edwards · Sep 13, 2003

Tim too: "The tribulation began when Jesus left this earth."

There are no meanings of the term
"tribulation", "Jesus", and "left" that
satisfy this equation (that make this
sentence true).

Here is a scripturaly significant
definition of the term "tribulation".

The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adan & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity,
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:

Ed Edwards · Sep 13, 2003

Tim too: "Three references in the OT is not enough to prop the pretrib rapture."

Thank you Brother Tim too.
You have just granted me three
more Old Testaments proofs of the
pretribulation rapture than any
other anti-pretrib i've ever known.
Thank you for making my day.

Ed Edwards · Sep 14, 2003

In my list on page 3,
Philipians 4-5 should
be Philippians 4:5.

quote:
------------------------
Philippians 3:20-21, 4-5
------------------------

Baptist Beleiver: "I cannot find anything
that teaches rapture in 3:20-21.
(I don’t understand your reference to “4-5”.
There is no chapter 5 and verses 3:4-5 don’t
seem to relate at all.)

Of course, BB wouldn't be able to find the rapture
in Philippians 4:5 either

Philippians 4:5 (nKJV):
Let your gentleness be known to all men.
The Lord is at hand.

Ah yes, a vivid reminder of why we should be kind
to our fellow servants of Jesus, for our Lord Jesus
is at hand and can come any time to take us to
heaven in the pretribultion rapture/resurrection.

Reference here is to the immediacy of the return
of the Lord. The return of the Lord is
in two phases on one prophetic day. The Return
before the Tribulation Period to reature/resurrect
the curch age elect saitns and the
return after the Tribulation Period to defeat the AC=antichrist.

Philippians 3:20-21 (nKJV):

For our citizenship is in heaven,
from which we also eagerly
wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
21 who will transform our lowly body that
it may be conformed to His glorious body,
according to the working by which He is able even
to subdue all things to Himself.

Ah yes, the pretribulation transformation of this lowly
body unto a glory body like the resurrection body of
Jesus. Do we eagerly await dying so we can get resurrected?
Well,i'm sure some do. But because of the pretribulation
rapture hope, we can hope that the Lord will indeed
come get us soon, take us to our home (where we
have our citizenship) in heaven.

Tim too · Sep 15, 2003

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Tim too: "The tribulation began when Jesus left this earth."

There are no meanings of the term
"tribulation", "Jesus", and "left" that
satisfy this equation (that make this
sentence true).
Click to expand...

Ed you great lists packed with verses pulled out of context from all over the Bible don't satisfy.

The Tribulation is at the hands of men, inparticular those that are used by the evil one to persecute God's children. This tribulation began at the time Christ went up to Heaven to the right hand of the Father.

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. John 16:33 KJV

Here are several scriptures that you can run down to see that, yes tribulation is at the hands of evil men and it began at the time Christ left this world.

<><Matt 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

<><Matt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

<><Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

<><Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

<><John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

<><Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

<><Roma 5:3 And not only [so], but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

<><Roma 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

<><Roma 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

<><2Cor 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

<><2Cor 7:4 Great [is] my boldness of speech toward you, great [is] my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.

<><1The 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

<><Reve 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

<><Reve 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

<><Reve 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

Trotter · Sep 15, 2003

There is a difference in tribulation, and Tribulation.

Jesus told us we would have tribulation (persecution, hard times). He also spoke of the Great Tribulation. Two very different events.

To confuse the ongoing tribulation that is part of being a believer in Christ with the climax of God's wrath on sinful mankind is hard to do. If the Great Tribulation that Jesus spoke of (and John laid out in Revelation) began when Jesus ascended to the Father, what exactly would be the timetable on that (biblically)?

And if the Tribulation started at that time, how could anyone justify amilliniemism?

I don't see it, nor do I buy it.

In Christ,
Trotter

Grasshopper · Sep 15, 2003

And if the Tribulation started at that time, how could anyone justify amilliniemism?I don't see it, nor do I buy it.

The freedom of Preterism.

Tim too · Sep 15, 2003

Originally posted by Trotter:
There is a difference in tribulation, and Tribulation.
Click to expand...

There is no difference in the tribulation described in the Bible only in the degree of intensity. Jesus described the initial events of the tribulation in Mark 13 as the beginning of the birth pains, labor pains to put it more contemporary. What happens in labor pains? They start out slightly uncomfortable and spaced far apart. Then as the woman gets closer to delivering they become more painful and closer together. This is the way Jesus described the great tribulation.

8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains. 9 "You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. 10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. 11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit. 12 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 "When you see `the abomination that causes desolation' standing where it does not belong--let the reader understand--then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let no one on the roof of his house go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16 Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 17 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now--and never to be equaled again. 20 If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. Mark 13:9-20 NIV
Click to expand...

Look at how Jesus described the tribulation and see how it plays out in the passage...just like the birth pains of a woman.

Originally posted by Trotter:
Jesus told us we would have tribulation (persecution, hard times). He also spoke of the Great Tribulation. Two very different events.

To confuse the ongoing tribulation that is part of being a believer in Christ with the climax of God's wrath on sinful mankind is hard to do.
Click to expand...

Did you look at the difference in tribulation and wrath in the Bible? There is an imaginary difference set up by pretribbers that says the great tribulation is going poured out on unbelievers by God. It is imaginary. If we truly use the Bible to interpret the Bible and it doesn't contradict itself, why would you think that tribulation mentioned in the gospels is from God when almost every single New Testament reference shows that tribulation is at the hands of the world?

Originally posted by Trotter:
If the Great Tribulation that Jesus spoke of (and John laid out in Revelation) began when Jesus ascended to the Father, what exactly would be the timetable on that (biblically)?
Click to expand...

Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?" 3 But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4 I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5 Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals." 6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. Revelation 5:1-6 NIV
Click to expand...

Here is the Biblical passage that shows when the tribulation begins. I think we can all agree that the great tribulation begins in Revelation in Chapter 6. Right? The seals of Revelation 6 are broken by a person. Who was that person? Jesus,right? When did He begin to break the seals? Look in the passage above. In Heaven or on Earth there was no one able to break the seals and would not be until Christ finished His atoning work for us. See how that is pictured Biblically. "See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals." 6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain,... If that is not a picture of our resurrected Lord and what He did for us I don't know what is. Immediately after He receives the scroll you see worship in Heaven and then He begins to break the seals.

Originally posted by Trotter:
And if the Tribulation started at that time, how could anyone justify amilliniemism?
Click to expand...

I don't believe that amillenniumism is justifiable so I don't try.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

npetreley · Sep 16, 2003

Well, Tim, I'm impressed at how persistent you are in the face of futility! But I enjoy your arguments, and agree with them.

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