Pre-millenial dispensationalism - Baptist?

Premill interprets Ezekiel chapter 37 speaks of future restoration of Israel, already fulfilled in year 1948 or 1967.

But, it misinterpreting on Ezekiel 37.

The context of Ezekiel chapter 37 talks about future resurrection.

Premill believes "dry bones" represent Israel, that it have been dead and not being existing as nation for many centuries.

Does Ezekiel 37 actually say that Israel was not being existing nation for many years or centuries? None.

I urge y'all, read whole context of chapter 37, what it all talk about.

My understanding of Ezekiel chapter 37 speaks of future resurrection, because of next two chapters speak about Gog and Magog. Then, Ezekiel chapter 40 to 48 speak of future eternality kingdom.

Ezek. 37:9-10 says, "The said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. So, I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army."


My understanding of Ezek. 37:9-10 speak about the resurrection.

I am aware of premill interprets Ezek. 37:12, that God shall bring Jews back to their land - Israel again, it already fulfilled in year 1948.

I notice the context of Ezek. 37:12-13 speak about the resurrection, that all believers shall be risen from their graves.

I ask you a question, does the resurrection of the people already occur in year 1948 or 1967?

Look at the cementary. there are full of graves are still there right now. All people are not yet risen from the graves.

So, Ezekiel chapter 37 is not fullfill yet right now.

How about Ezek 37:12? - Bring them back to land of Israel.

Premill uses that verse to prove there shall be restoration of Israel, already fulfilled in year 1948 or 1967.

My understanding of Ezek 37:12 tells us, that when AFTER the resurrection of the believers occurs, then bring them gathering together into their home.

Israel is not only physical nation, also, it is spiritual place, that is New Jerusalem.

Also, we are Israel. Israel is Church, Church is Israel.

I am not a Replacement Theology.

I have been read from Ezekiel chapter 37 through chapter 48 about the end times often.

I believe the resurrection must occur first before Gog and Magog event.

My understanding of Ezekiel chapter 38 and 39 is the picture of the battle of Armageddon.

I notice, there are three or four views on the timing of Gog and Magog. Some believe it will occur before Tribulation begins. Some believe it will occur in the middle of Tribulation. Some believe it will occur at the end of Tribulation. Some believe it will occur at the end of millennium.

My beliefs on the timing of Gog and Magog will occur at the end of Tribulation.

Before explain on the timing of Gog and Magog, I want to tell you something about Ezekiel 38 & 39.

Some pretribbbers believe it will be occur at the beginning of Tribulation, because of Ezek 39:9 tells us, that the weapons shall be burned for SEVEN YEARS.

Do I deny Ezek 39:9? NO! I agree with it. I have no problem with it.

Before I discuss on Ezekiel 38 and 39.

I want to explain to you, why I do not agree with their 3 different views on the timing of Gog and Magog.

Pretrib believes the timing of Gog and Magog will occur at the beginning of Tribulation period because of Ezek. 39:9 says so.

If suppose they are correct. So, when Gog and Magog invade Israel, they are destroyed, and then, all weapons shall be burned for seven years. When after seven years passed, as they finally clean all weapons done are gone. BUT, there is another armies invade against Israel again. After the armies are destroyed, they would have to clean all weapons for another 7 years all over again TWO TIMES - total 14 years.

Does it make a sense?

Some believe the invasion against Israel in the middle of Tribulation. If they are correct. So, that mean, after the army are destroyed, the weapons shall be burned for seven years.

While they are cleaning the weapons in the halfway, there is another army invade against Israel. The army are destroyed, they would have to clean all weapons add another 7 years would be total - 10 1/2 years.

Does it make a sense??

Some believe the invasion against Israel at the end of Tribulation period. I agree with them.

Why?

The most important key word, that we notice in Ezekiel 39:17-19 is "fowls".

There is also another refer verse of Ezek. 39:17-19 is in Matt 24:28. Jesus tells us, where the carcass are, shall the eagles be gathering together.

I believe Matt 24:28 must be relate with the battle of armageddon.

Also, there is another refer verses of 'fowls' in Luke 17:34-37. Luke 17:37 sames with Matt 24:28.

There is also another refer verse find in Rev. 19:17-18.

I am no doubt that I strongly believe the timing of Gog and Magog must be at the end of Tribulation period relate with the battle of Armageddon, because of word, "fowls" "eagles".

I have a good reason why I do believe Ezekiel 38 and 39 must be occur at the end of Tribulation period.

How about Ezek. 39:9?

I have a good point with a good thought on Ezek 39:9.

Pretrib teaches, there will be rapture 7 years earlier before the second advent. So, that means, about 200 million of alive Christians caught up in the air, and left 6.1 billion of world population on earth. Then, come the judgement seat of Christ.

So, let figure it out how many saints have to be judged during seven year of Tribulation period. Do math on it.

First, let start with seconds. There is 60 seconds of each a minute. So, 60 seconds X(multply) 60 minutes in a hour = 3600 seconds in a hour. 3600 seconds X 24 hours in a day = 86,400 seconds a day. 86,400 seconds X 365 days a year = 31,536,000 seconds a year. 31,536,000 seconds X 7 years = 220,752,000 seconds total for seven years.

That means, God would have to judge a person in every 1 to 2 seconds.

Does God have a time to set up for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb? No.

God have to hurry to finish judge all 220 million of alive Christians in only 7 years. How about the rest of all saints from Early Church to present day - 2000 years? That would be millions, and millions of saints are already in heaven since creation to present day.

God have no time to judge to all saints from creation to present time in the heave for only 7 years.

After God finish judge with all 220 million of saints in the heaven. Then, all saints would have to grab a bag of sandwich with them, while they will ride on the horse to follow Christ down to earth, because it would not be enough time for to have Marriage Supper of the Lamb in heaven as seven years of Tribulaiton period already expired.

Does pretribulationism doctrine make a sense?

I have a good reason that I strong believe the timing of Gog and Magog will occur at the end of tribulation period, because of word, "fowls", "eagles" refer with Matt 24:28; Luke 17:37; Rev. 19:17-19 must be at the battle of Armageddon.

I have no problem with Ezek 39:9.

Because the great white throne/judgement seat of Christ(both are synonymous) will take for a long, long time take so many years to go. God would have to judge ALL people from creation to the end of the age that would be billions and billions. So, no problem with me on Ezek 39:9, that the weapons will be burn for only 7 years WHILE the judgment day are on the processing same time. When after the weapons all be gone, while the judgement are STILL on processing.

How about Rev. 20:8?

Some pretrib believe there will be two events of Gog and Magog- first at the beginning of Tribulation, second at the end of millennium.

I ask you a question, does the Bible teaches the event of Gog and Magog will be happen twice???

Revelation chapter 20 is full of symbolic and figurative.

Revelation 19 does not bring chapter 20 into chronological order of the timing. Revelation chapter 19 ends at the second advent, that's it. Revelation chapter 20 ends at the second advent, that's it.

You have to be realize that the book of Revelation have parallels and retelling the events. There are seven parallels in Revelation.

I will discuss on Revelation in another post, because of this post is SO VERY LONG!!

I have a good reason that, I believe the resurrection of Ezekiel chapter 37 will be occur BEFORE Gog and Magog.

Because in Rev. 16:12-16 tell us, at the 6th vial, Euphrate River shall be dried up, allow 200 million of the Kings of east to march across it prepare for the battle of Armageddon. Rev. 16:15 tells us, that Christ shall come LIKE AS THIEF. That is a rapture. We shall be rapture after the 6th vial, but BEFORE the battle of armageddon.

I believe Gog and Magog is Aramgeddon.

So, the resurrection MUST be occur first before rapture comes - 1 Thess 4:15-17.

Ezekiel chapter 37 is the picture of rapture for to gathering all saints together that would be take place before Gog and Magog occurs.


In the next post, I will continue discuss on Ezekiel chapter 40 to 48. I am aware of premill emphasis on Ezekiel 40 to 48 to prove, that there will be another temple and sacrifice again for the millennium kingdom. Premill interpreting Ezekiel 40 to 48 into literally too much.

I will discuss on it, why I do not agree with premill's teaching on it in the next post.

Forgive me, this post os SO VERY LONG!!!

But, that what I am trying to explain to you on Ezekiel chapter 37 to 39, what it all talk about.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Dude...

I have kids...a job...a wife...a life..

I ain't got time to carve up 4 pages of argument.

Your problem with Ezekiel 37 stems from not reading verse 18 and the following when is says "Wilt thou not showest what thou meanest by these?"

Its all about God regathering the Nation of Israel and making them one nation in the land of their fathers. God Explains it himself. Not YOU, not ME...not even Ezekiel.

(The church has absolutely NO LAND covenant)

They will walk in the land of their fathers (my fathers were European, none were Israel)


Chapters 38 & 39 verify it by saying Gog & Magog are going to come against it.

Now how are Gog & Magog going to come against resurrected believers of chapter 37 (your interpretation)?


Be aware please that your argument about the nature of "time" and "not enough time for judgement" means nothing to a being that exists outside of time.

Time is one of the 4 physical dimensions that you and I dwell in. God obviously does not.

That Replacement Theology (RT) of yours has got you all messed up bud. I don't care how much you say you aren't R-T. You are. You can deny all day..but every argument you make is R-T.

Steve

 

I answered this in the other thread. These rebellious people are the offspring of those who enter the millennium as believers. Their children born are still born as totally depraved people. This is a false objection based on an improper understanding the kingdom teaching of Scripture.

This may be so (and it may not be). It does not have to be so in that events that appear side by side in teh text are often separated by many events. For instance, the OT prophesies of Christ's coming to do good and to judge (Isa 61). We know that these events are separated by a long period of time. Christ' own citation of this passage in Luke 4 is clear proof that our interpretation is correct in this regard.

However, even if it is true, it could well take place during teh tribulation, or at the end of the millennium. This is an objection based on assuming that your position is right, without entertaining the possibility (probability) that there is no contradiction, only a lack of complete knowledge.

 

Your objections should be based in fact. This is not it. You are rejecting somethign based on what you wish it was, rather than what it really is.

We are not Israel. We are contrast from Israel (Gal 6:16; Rom 11:25ff. etc.).

Again, not necessarily so. Do not paint with such a broad brush. It is not explicit in Scripture when Gog and Magog will occur. All dispensationalists do not believe this. Some believe it is at the mid point of the Trib, some at the end, some at the end of the Millennium. As in covenant theology, there is a range of views, each with some strenghts and each with weaknesses.

Your objections on timing of 200,000,000 believers is also superfluous. A God who brought this universe into existence in teh manner in which he did will have no problem judging that many people in any amount of time. 1 to 2 second per person is no problem for him. You are trying to impose your own ideas on teh text without valid warrant from the text.

 

Pastor Larry,

What event will mark the end of the age?

 

The church age?
The Tribulation?
The Millenial Kingdom?

Or are you speaking of the physical property of Time itself?

Steve

 

Signs of the End
by Don K. Preston

Those who claim the end of the age will occur in or around the year 2000 insist that we see today the predicted signs of that event. Jesus however, said that the signs of his coming, and his coming, would occur in "this generation" (Matthew 24:34). That was his generation. Yet those who hold that Jesus' coming has not yet occurred seek to redefine the term "this generation" and make it apply to our generation or to the future.

If it can be shown that every major sign of the Day of the Lord did occur in Jesus' contemporary generation then this demands that Jesus' prediction of his coming occurred then, and it means without doubt that the term "this generation" cannot be applied to our generation or a future generation.

The fact is that every major sign-not to mention the "minor" signs of earthquake, famine, pestilence, etc-that the Bible predicted to occur just prior to the Day of the Lord appeared in the first century. (Many try to say that there would be no signs of the end. This is simply false.) Notice what the Bible has to say about the signs of the end and the time of their occurrence.

Elijah was to come "before the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord" (Malachi 4:5-6). Jesus said John the Immerser was the predicted Elijah (Matthew 11:11-15; 17:9-13). But John, as Elijah appeared in Jesus' contemporary generation.

The outpouring of the Holy Spirit was to occur in the Last Days before the coming of the Lord (Joel 2:28-32). On Pentecost, the Spirit was poured out and Peter said, "this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel" (Acts 2:15f). The outpouring of the Spirit occurred in Jesus' contemporary generation.

In Matthew 24:14 Jesus said, "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world, then comes the end." In Romans 16:25-26, Colossians 1:23, etc. Paul said the gospel had been preached into all the world. This happened in Jesus' contemporary generation.

Jesus said that when the Abomination of Desolation appeared his disciples were to flee from Judea because of the coming tribulation. Then, "immediately after the tribulation" the Son of Man would come (Matthew 24:15-29). Church historian Eusebius says the early church fled Judea in about A. D. 66 being commanded to do so by the Lord. The Abomination of Desolation occurred in Jesus' contemporary generation.

The Great Apostasy would be another sign of the Day of the Lord (2 Thessalonians 2:2f). In Matthew 24:9-12 Jesus said the love of the "majority" [NASV] of people would grow cold. He said it would be in his generation, vs. 34. The rest of the New Testament documents the reality of that apostasy (Galatians 1:6f).

The Man of Sin was a sign of the parousia. Paul specifically says that Man of Sin was already alive in his generation (2 Thessalonians 2:5-8).

The Bible thus gave six major signs of the coming of the Lord. Every one of the predicted signs occurred in Jesus' contemporary generation!

Because every major sign of the Lord's coming did occur in the first century generation it is wrong to look for those signs today. Because every major sign occurred in Jesus' generation it is wrong to redefine "this generation" to mean our current generation or one that is yet future. Because all of those signs occurred in Jesus' generation Jesus' coming must have occurred then as well.

 

grasshopper,

Your post sounds like preterism. I strong diagree with it.

Jesus is not here on earth right now yet. He is still in the heaven.

I am waiting for anyone to answer the question - WHAT is the mark for the end of the age?


In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

p.s. I will post on Ezekiel 40 - 48 later tonight.

 

So you are looking for a physical Kingdom not a spiritual one? You might have a long wait.

 

Steve,

The prophecies on your cited website just skip over the restored Israel after Babylon as the fulfillment of those O.T. prophecies. Check out that history! The regathered Israel (of Ezra and Nehemiah's day) was greater than the pre-Babylonian Israel (as stated in Jer. 16) because it was the setting for Messiah. I'm saying that first regathering which preceded Jesus' first coming fits those prophecies better--and without doing lots of convoluted math formulas as he does there especially with Ezek.4. The modern state of Israel has rejected Christ--the focal point of the New Covenant. How much more disobedient can you get?

And I'm surprised that they cited Grant Jeffrey as a "Bible scholar". Don't false prophecies disqualify a man from that title? He was one of many who predicted worldwide chaos at Y2K! (I believe he based those predictions on his "Bible scholarship" as well). How soon we forget.

As far as the Old Covenant goes, I'm just going with what much of the N.T. says about it. Recognizing it's been fulfilled in Christ. (Heb. 8, 2 Cor. 3, etc.) We are now in the covenant where faith is the crucial factor, not ethnicity (Gal. 3, Eph. 2, etc.)

A beleiver in the better covenant, based upon better promises,

Tim

 

Grasshopper...

Well, at least 7 years as of this moment.

Steve

 

DeafPost...

How's about the 7th angel proclaiming an end to time in Rev. 10:6?

Steve

 

20 And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.

At least 7 more years then look inside of you.

 

Tim,

First off...Grant Jeffery...don't know the man. Heard of him...but don't know him. Never heard he claimed he was a Prophet.

Never knew that a mistake in Biblical scholarship disqualified you from ever being heard from again.

If that were true...every seminary, every pulpit and every pew would be empty.

Interpreting Biblical Prophecy...is a lot different than worrying about the Y2K bug. I don't know of a single responsible company that did nothing to check their computers in 1999.

As far as Israel being greater after the Babylonian invasion. 1. No Temple (at least for awhile). 2. No King. 3. No Ark of the Covenant (that's another board posting). 4. Only a remnant regathered.

You call that greater?

The Math is not convoluted. The Calendar is.

The website that I pointed you to...it neglects to mention that not only does the 2520 prophetic years of punishment match up to the "Servitude of the Nation" beginning in 536 B.C. and ending May 1948. The 2520 prophetic years also matches the end of the "Desolations of Jerusalem" of 507 B.C. to June of 1967 when Israel recaptured Jerusalem during the 6 day war. I guess Grant Jefferey missed that one.

So...you're prepared to tell me that the fulfillment of not ONE but TWO 2520 years of prophetic punishment laid out by Ezekiel in one of the weirdest Prophecies of the entire bible...and post scripted by God in the book of Leviticus is just...coincidental?

Riiiiiiiight.

If you still say it was fulfilled...you show me when the 360 years were completed.

I agree our covenant with Christ is better, but God's covenant with Abraham and Isaac is not yet complete (Genesis 17). Which part of " EVERLASTING " did you not understand?


Steve

(p.s.-- just because the calendar says 2003...doesn't mean that Christianity's Y2K has happened yet.)

 

Right, I get it. The kingdom of God is in the Pharisees. Classic.

 

Grasshopper, "this generation" refers to the generation that sees all these things. Stop with the eisegesis. It does not help discussion.

 

Quoting Steve,"First off...Grant Jeffery...don't know the man. Heard of him...but don't know him. Never heard he claimed he was a Prophet.
Never knew that a mistake in Biblical scholarship disqualified you from ever being heard from again.
If that were true...every seminary, every pulpit and every pew would be empty."

Steve,
I'm not talking about making mistakes, I'm talking about publishing predictions about the future based supposedly on "Bible scholarship" that end up being dead wrong! I think that pretty well discredits a man's scholarship.


Again quoting Steve, "As far as Israel being greater after the Babylonian invasion. 1. No Temple (at least for awhile). 2. No King. 3. No Ark of the Covenant (that's another board posting). 4. Only a remnant regathered."

Steve,
Old Israel's (Pre-Babylonian captivity) greatness rested on physical things--types and shadows. So what made restored Israel greater?

1. The Temple. Yes the physical structure was so inferior that it made the old men weep (Ezra 3), Haggai said that comparatively it was "as nothing", but look at the prophecy that Haggai made about it--"The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the Lord of hosts, and in this place will I give peace, saith the Lord of hosts." (Hag. 2:9) The whole passge recognizes that the coming of Messiah would make it great. It became greater because eventually Jesus came and taught in it! (other prophets also spoke of Jesus coming to this temple-- Malachi and Zechariah).There He offered a covenant of peace with God through forgiveness of sins, rather than the old sacrificial system.

2. No King? Ultimately Jesus became the King of the believers among them. He was the son of David, and affirmed his kingship before Pilate.

3. No ark of the covenant. The ark was just a golden container for the Old covenant. Jesus declared the new covenant in His blood for those whose sins were forgiven (Mat.26:28).

4. Only a remnant regathered. Just as all the prophecies declared it would be. God has gathered His faithful remnant throughout history from among a larger group. So He did with Israel. Ezra recognized that and rejoiced in it (Ezra 9:8,9)


In Christ,

Tim

 

Some translators have interpreted "within you" as "in your midst." Either way, the principle is the same: "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation..." When Jesus said, "The Kingdom of God is within you," the "you" could be generic, not necessarily, "The kingdom of God is within you Pharisees.