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Pre-millenial dispensationalism - Baptist?

Gunther

New Member
Primitive Baptist, the angel told Mary in Luke 1 (I think that is the reference) that the Christ child would sit upon his father David's throne.

The only way for your theology to gel would be to make David the same person as God the Father. I know you did not mean such a thought.

Given time and study, all people will be premillenial.
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Ezekiel chapter 40 to 48

(1) Remember it is a vision - Ezekiel 40:2
It is a prophetic vision. It means something.

[qb](2) The millennium is not mentioned once in the context of Ezekiel 40 to 48
[/b]The whole thing is about the millennium. There is no legitimate way to say that it is not even mentioned. That is like saying sports aren't mentioned in Sporting News.

(3) To hold to such a hyper-literalist view on the temple would require you(if you are going to be consistent) to believe in the restoration of the abolished sacrifices, which is absolutely preposterous. The sacrifices have been done away forever through the atoning work of Calvary!!! I personal struggled with this Pre-mill doctrine while I was premill and was relieved to abandon it when I became an Amillennialist. ... In the Premillennialist scheme of thought, numerous offerings for sin are going to be re-introduced in a supposed future millennium age, against the expressed purpose of God.
The express purpose of God is for the sacrifices to be reinstituted. When God says it, you cannot say that it is against the express purpose of God. The sacrificial system has no problem being reinstituted because it does not compromise the once for all atonement of Christ. That is merely a misunderstanding of the sacrificial system and what premills teach about it.


Of course the wealth of New Testament support for spiritualising this VISION is overwhelming, whereas, support for literalising this VISION is NOTHING.
There is not one bit, not even one iota of NT evidence that we should take the words of this vision (or any other) and make them mean something besides what they say. You require that the language mean nothing. We reject that. We believe that God meant to communicate something to us and the NT confirms that for us. The only thing supporting a spiritual view of this prophecy is your system.

and can safely intepret the old in the light of the new, not the other way round, which Pre-mills consistently do!!!
Flat out wrong.

I do not see any mentioned on 'a thousand years' anywhere in the context of Ezekiel chapter 40 to 48 nothing at all. No way, you can prove that Ezekiel 40 to 48 speaks of future supposed millennial kingdom such as it claims 'a thousand years'. Because Ezekiel 40-48 do not mentioned on 'a thousand years'.
Every truth about a doctrine is not mentioned every time the doctrine is mentioned. This is the weakest argument you have used yet. This would be like saying that because Gen 1:1 doesn't mention Jesus, he didn't exist in Gen 1:1. It is faulty thinking and weak argumentation.
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
HOW do you can prove Ezekiel 40-48 talk about "Millennium"????
By looking at the context and understanding that it is talking about the end time temple in the kingdom of God, which is what the millennium is.

You really need to read "The Greatness of the Kingdom" by Alva J. McClain. It would clarify a lot of these things from a premillennial viewpoint.

As for discussing Hebrews and the sacrifices, I agree with what Hebrews says. But I do not believe that Hebrews contradicts Ezek. I believe both passages stand as they are. Your view of sacrifices seems limited to less than what the OT describes them as being.
 

stevenlynch

New Member
Matt:

Matt said:
but I am still wary of a doctrine that was (virtually) unknown to the church prior to Margaret MacDonald and John Nelson Darby in the 1830s.
You talking about a Pre-Trib Rapture? Nah..they weren't the first. I've got some notes on it at home..give me a little time and I'll post the info.

Steve
 

stevenlynch

New Member
PrimitiveBaptist,

While you got your fingers in the book of Hebrews and you want to talk about Priests...let's look at Chapter 3...The whole chapter is about Jesus is greater than Moses.

Chapter 4 states Jesus is the High Priest
Chapter 5 states he's in the Line of Melchizedek.
Chapter 6 talks about the relationship of Abraham & Melchizedek.
Chapter 7 states in verse 1 that Melchizedek was a KING and a PRIEST.

the rest of chapter 1 discusses how Melchizedek is superior to the Levites because Abraham gave him tithes...while Levi was still in his loins.

So Christ is a KING and a PRIEST...superior to David AND the Levites. He holds both offices. So will we as inheritors during the Millenial Kingdom.

When Peter is quoting Psalm 2... who do you think is talking in Psalm 2? Respectfully...I don't think you know the players of the conversation in Psalm 2. Its a trialogue between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
 

stevenlynch

New Member
DeafPostTrib,

You think its impossible for the Sons of Zadok to be restored?

mmm.

Considering there is already DNA evidence of a black Jewish tribe in Africa (Senegal I think...there was a PBS documentary on it) I would disagree with your statement.

I'm not sure if the ones in Ethiopia have been checked out...but they claim they are a Levitical tribe. Could be...Moses had an Ethiopian wife.
 

stevenlynch

New Member
FOR EVERYBODY... RE: THRONE OF DAVID

This is sort of in response to PrimBapt's point of using the term of "David" idiomatically through out the O.T and the N.T.

Ever wonder why you never read "The Throne of Solomon"?

I mean...Solomon's reign was grander...more presitigous, he even had a Temple.

Yet nothing about Solomon in the New Testament..seems very good. The only comparison between Jesus and Solomon I can find is that Jesus is stated to be wiser. Solomon doesn't even measure up to the Lillies of the Field.

I have my own thesis about this...just wanted to hear ya'lls first.


Steve
 

stevenlynch

New Member
DNA...Priesthood...Africa

getting back to finding Priests:

the Lemba clans carries, at a very high frequency, a particular Y-chromosome type termed the "Cohen modal haplotype," which is known to be characteristic of the paternally inherited Jewish priesthood and is thought, more generally, to be a potential signature haplotype of Judaic origin.
emphasis added

Its from a link on PBS' NOVA program...I watched the program...interesting. Here's the link:

Black Jews of Southern Africa

Here's a transcript of the program...it has a link to the main site:

The Lost Tribes of Israel (transcript)
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Steve,

If you're thinking of pseudo-Ephraim or Montanus, then I'm afraid you'll have to do better than that to convince me. Pseudo-Ephraim appears to be linked more to White Supremacy groups than pre-mill. Montanus was a proto-charismatic who was eventually (when he and his two 'prophetess' acolytes got too extreme) labelled a heretic by the church. I think I've also referred in an earlier post in this thread (page 3?) to various RCs putting pre-mill forward in the 17th century, but again I wouldn't regard this as a reliable source of sound doctrine.

Yours in Christ

Matt
 

stevenlynch

New Member
Matt,

Hey...while I'm looking...is there anybody else you want to disqualify?

As long as we're picking and choosing... I'd like to disqualify anything inspired by Origen, Westcott & Hort & Augustine.

Oh...but that would pretty much delete Amillenialism.

Steve
 

stevenlynch

New Member
DeafPostTrib,

RE: Sacrifices

Your problem in dismissing the reality of sacrificial offerings resuming...comes from Gabriel's words to Daniel in chapter 9 verse 27.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease , and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
emphasis added

Now...how is this Anti-christ dude gonna make the sacrifices cease...unless they are going on?
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
The express purpose of God is for the sacrifices to be reinstituted.
It is not the expressed or unexpressed purpose of God for animal sacrifices to be reinstituted.

Today, we regard those who practice such a thing to be pagans, Satan worshippers, etc.

The animal rights crowd would never go for such a thing to take place. And I am quite certain that millions and millions of those of us who are not animal rights people would protest such a thing taking place. The Jews have enough problems with world opinion and anti-Semites trying to kill them now. They don't need an added burden such as this hung around their necks. I think anyone advocating that the Jews reinstitute animal sacrifices is doing them a great disservice and ought to be ashamed of himself.
 

stevenlynch

New Member
Matt,

OK...got my notes.

These were compiled by Dr. Chuck Missler for his lecture entitled "The Rapture: Christianity's Most Preposterous Belief."

You can purchase it in download form for $7.95 at the online store of www.khouse.org.

Here we go:
________________________________

Pre-Trib Eschatology supported by:

The Epistle of Barnabus (A.D. 100)
Irenaeus in " Against Heresies "
Hippolytus (Irenaeus' student 2nd Century
Justin Martyr " Dialogue with Trypho "
Ephraem the Syrian (4th Century)

Quote from Ephraem of Nisbis (306-373 A.D.):

" For all the Saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." -- on The Last Times, the Antichrist and the End of the World.
Now you said "Pseudo-Ephraim" so I'm not sure if these two are the same...or different, regardless of that however its a 4th century document that precedes any White Surpemacy movement which began in Pulaski, Tennessee in the mid 1860's by Nathan Bedford Forrest (born in Chapel Hill, TN --see my location, I know what I'm talking about) ..who soon renounced the movement when it became violent.

_________
Let's continue:

Pre-Trib eschatology was espoused in the works of these folks:
Peter Jurieu- 1687 The Approaching Deliverance of the Church
Philip Doddridge - 1738 Commentary on the New Testament
Dr. John Gill - 1748 Commentary on the New Testament
James MacKnight - 1763 Commentary on the Apostolical Epistles
Thomas Scott - 1792 Commentary on the Holy Bible

Pre-Trib popularized in the 1800's by:

Emanuel Lacunza (Ben Ezra) - 1812
Edward Irving - 1816
John Darby - 1820
Margaret McDonald - 1830

________________________________

Ok...in summary, we have at least 10 different writings before Darby and McDonald...and an additional 2 persons who were teaching it prior to Darby and McDonald.

So can we put this idea that Pre-Trib Rapture belief didn't start until 1830 in the trash now?

Steve
 

stevenlynch

New Member
To the Angel Gabriel:

According to Mr. KenH...you should be ashamed of yourself.

I would appreciate a response.

mmm... do I gotta do the 21 day fast thingy?

Steve
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by stevenlynch:
To the Angel Gabriel:

According to Mr. KenH...you should be ashamed of yourself.

I would appreciate a response.
Nope. The angel Gabriel never gave voice to an unBiblical scheme such as dispensational premillennialism.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
Hebrews 9:24-28 (ESV)
[24]For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. [25] Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, [26] for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. [27] And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, [28] so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Jesus is not coming back to deal with sin which is what the animal sacrifices are about. Nowhere in the Bible are they described as a being a memorial to my Lord's once for all time sacrifice.

Hebrews 8:5-7 (ESV)
[5] They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, "See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain." [6] But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. [7] For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

The animal sacrifices were part of the first covenant which has been replaced by the second covenant. To reinstitute animal sacrifices would be to return to "copy and shadow".
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
Originally posted by KenH:
It is not the expressed or unexpressed purpose of God for animal sacrifices to be reinstituted.
He is the one who said it, not me. Why would express something that was not his "expressed will"?? It is your side who must do away with the text of Scripture on this one, not ours.

Today, we regard those who practice such a thing to be pagans, Satan worshippers, etc.
"Today" we would. But that is today, not the Millennium and there is a big difference.

The animal rights crowd would never go for such a thing to take place. And I am quite certain that millions and millions of those of us who are not animal rights people would protest such a thing taking place. The Jews have enough problems with world opinion and anti-Semites trying to kill them now. They don't need an added burden such as this hung around their necks. I think anyone advocating that the Jews reinstitute animal sacrifices is doing them a great disservice and ought to be ashamed of himself.
"Ashamed of himself"??? What kind of language is that Ken?? What kind of approach is that. I have tried to carry on a civil conversation and you pull this ... Why???

As for what animal rights activists will do and say, who cares?? Why are we, as biblical Christians, concerned with what animal rights activists say?? We are talking about something much more sacred. This is an end-time reinstitution that will take place after the return of Christ. By that time, the unsaved will be gone and there will be no misunderstanding. If you had that part of your theology right, you would have seen this answer coming
.

In the bottom line, Ezekiel 40-48 talks clearly of the reinstitution of the sacrifices in the end-time. Why not simply debate what that means without trying to change it and pretend like its not there. Most of us dispensationalists are solidly rooted in the biblical text. We have good and strong biblical reasons for what we believe. In fact, on an exegetical level, covenantalism cannot compare with dispensationalism. Get past treating us as if we are blind and stupid. Study the reasons and arguments and start asking the tough exegetical questions. Do not simply assume that because the text says one thing that it must mean something else. Ezek 40-48 in no way contradicts or compromises the teaching of Hebrews.
 
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