Evolutionary Propoganda - A True Story

Originally posted by Brett:
But still, you weren't exactly afraid to let loose with the personal attacks, so why are you now complaining about being attacked yourself?

Click to expand...

Brett,

Doubtless I did make some personal attacks, but not nearly so personal as was made against me.
If you will go back and read the posts you will find that the attacks against me were more personal (directed at me by name) while mine against the evolutionists were more general (directed in general against those who hold to the theory of evolution).

The previous reprimand given to me was not given for making personal attacks but for setting forth a sincerely held theological position - namely that it is impossible to have faith in Christ while believing in evolution. I was told that I'm not even allowed to make that assertion.

All that beside, I am not complaining about being attacked. Being attacked doesn't bother me one bit. Truth has nothing to fear from error.

That about which I am complaining is the fact that I am singled out for making personal attacks while the personal attacks against me were tolerated. In other words, I'm complaing about the blatant hypocricy.

Mark Osgatharp

Mark, you were called on one specific issue - questioning the salvation of others. In order to show hypocrisy in the moderator, you must therefore find where somebody questioned your salvation and got away with it. The posts you cited above don't seem to have that defining criterion in them. In my opinion, you have been bearing false witness against the moderator when you accuse them of unfairly singling you out.

Well, in truth, there has been hypocrisy in applying the rules in general. One of the BB rules is:

2. Show grace to the other posters. When someone disagrees with you, discuss it; but be slow to offend, and eager to get into the Word and find the answers. Remember, when discussing passionate issues, it is easy to go too far and offend. Further, if we are "earnestly contending for the faith" it would be unrealistic not to expect at times to be misunderstood or even ridiculed. But please note that your words can sometimes be harsh if used in the wrong way. The anger of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

Click to expand...

I think Mark does have a point here.

Mark,
Respectfully as a Christian brother I think you crossed the line. You accused others of being heretics, unbelievers and infidels because they did not believe in a literal 6 day creation. Not mistaken, not misguided, not ill-informed but heretics and infidels. There's little in the way of excuse for that. I don't mind you disagreeing with long age creation and presenting your viewpoint but don't you think saying people who disagree with you are heretics, unsaved, infidels ....etc is a huge inductive step from that ? I was saved by the blood of the Lamb. John 3:16. Jesus is Lord and I can tell you buddy we're all , young Earthers, Long Age Creationists going to meet in heaven. Amen. I'll shake your hand in heaven Mark. You too Brett, Steve...et al.

Originally posted by doug_mmm:
I don't mind you disagreeing with long age creation and presenting your viewpoint but don't you think saying people who disagree with you are heretics, unsaved, infidels ....etc is a huge inductive step from that?

Click to expand...

Doug,

To start with, I don't formulate my theology on the basis of what you mind or don't mind. I formulate my theology on the basis of God's word and I sincerely believe the word of God to teach that one must accept the absolute truthfulness of the Scriptures in order to be saved.

So what is it that bothers you so? Is it the fact that I believe what I believe or is it the fact that I publicly state what I believe?

What are you asking from me? Are you asking me to quit believing what I believe? Or are ou asking me to start believing that a man who believes in evolution can also believe in the absolute truthfulness of the Scriptures? Or are you asking me to just keep my sincerely held beliefs to myself?

Mark Osgatharp

I would contend that before the flood the day could have been slightly more than 24 hours due to the conservation of angular momentum

What do you think? OF course the early people would have had no way of knowing as accurately as we do. However things would have been seen as quite precise though.

Hi Mark,
Hope all is well with you.

Dont have any problem with your first paragraph.

What do I want from you ?

I have no problem with your stating your case and what you believe.

Perhaps quiet reflection on calling others heretics and infidels for not believeing a literal 6 day creation. Remember the meaning of days is hotly debated. Allow that people can be sincerely wrong but still followers of Christ.

best wishes and have a great weekend.

Doug

Originally posted by gb93433:
I would contend that before the flood the day could have been slightly more than 24 hours due to the conservation of angular momentum

Click to expand...

YEC literalists assert that the earth was created in six 24 hour days.

Originally posted by doug_mmm:
I have no problem with your stating your case and what you believe.

Click to expand...

But obviously you do, for you strongly criticized me stating my sincerely held belief that men who believe in evolution are heretics and infidels.

Perhaps quiet reflection on calling others heretics and infidels for not believeing a literal 6 day creation. Remember the meaning of days is hotly debated. Allow that people can be sincerely wrong but still followers of Christ.

Click to expand...

First of all, despite the wanton personal attacks and accusations that were made against me, I do believe that people can be sincerely wrong about some issues and still be a follower of Christ. Notwithstanding, I do not believe creation/evolution to be one of those issues.

Remember, believing in evolution is not merely a matter of not believing in a literal 6 day creation. Believing in evolution puts a man at diametrical odds with the whole scheme of creation that runs throughout the Bible.

Most importantly, it calls into question the veracity of Jesus Christ who uniformily treated the Old Testament Scriptures as absolute truth. It is upon the basis of this truth that the promise of Christ and the truth of the gospel is premised. Therefore to deny the truthfulness of the Scriptures is to overthrow the whole basis of Christian faith.

Therefore, I sincerely believe that belief in evolution reflects such a disregard for the truthfulness of the Scripture that the man who accepts it cannot possibly be a believer in the Scriptures or the gospel. It is on that basis that I soberly and reflectively conclude that evolutionists are not Christians in the Biblical sense of the word.

Mark Osgatharp

Mark,

What scriptural evidence do you have that one needs to believe in scriptural inerrancy in order to be saved?

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
It is on that basis that I soberly and reflectively conclude that evolutionists are not Christians in the Biblical sense of the word.

Click to expand...

What do you do with those who provide a testimony of a changed and renewed life in Christ - with those who profess Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, who say they have experienced new life in Christ?

What about those who accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour and then for whatever reason pass away several days later without really learning that God created the world in 6 24-hour days? Are they lost?

Originally posted by Brett:
What scriptural evidence do you have that one needs to believe in scriptural inerrancy in order to be saved?

Click to expand...

It is possible that one can be a Christian and an evolutionist, but such a position as this now places the theistic evolutionist in an indefensible position biblically. This position is dishonoring to God as well as in a direct disagreement with his Creator and Saviour. Is the servant wiser than his Lord?

I now belong to an IFB Church, because I’ve seen the evolutionists elbowing there way into numerous churches, United Methodists, which I used to be a member of and the Southern Baptists, which I visited with their ‘spiritualizing’ the gospel and allegorizing Genesis, b/c fallible man can’t be wrong.

In Mark chapter 10, when the Pharisees questioned Jesus about divorce, Jesus replies But from the beginning of creation God made them male and female. Jesus then quotes Genesis 2:24. Since Jesus was an eyewitness to His Fathers creation, I’ll take the word of my Saviour over any man!

As I stated once before, all of us that are saved will stand before the Judgment seat of Christ and will be judged according to our works. Yes, Faith in the Word of God will be apart of those works.

For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

[ October 31, 2003, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: john6:63 ]

Originally posted by john6:63:
For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Click to expand...

John 6:63,

This passage is specifically talking about lost people - people who did not believe in Jesus at all. It is on the basis of such Scriptures that I conclude a man who does not believe in Genesis does not believe in Christ, for Christ said it is impossible to believe in one without believing in the other.

Mark Osgatharp

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by john6:63:
For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Click to expand...

John 6:63,

This passage is specifically talking about lost people - people who did not believe in Jesus at all. It is on the basis of such Scriptures that I conclude a man who does not believe in Genesis does not believe in Christ, for Christ said it is impossible to believe in one without believing in the other.

Mark Osgatharp </font>[/QUOTE]Leviticus 11:22-23 "Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind. But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you. " (KJV)

Remind me again why you feel you don't have to believe that there actually exist any species with four feet that fly? Remember, according to your own testimony, your salvation depends on your believing these words to be inerrantly inspired and perfectly accurate. On the other hand, you are strictly charged to rightly divide the word of truth, so its not right to arbitrarily make up an interpretation that doesn't really make sense, such as that one of the pairs of the legs aren't really legs, or something silly like that.

Originally posted by Paul of Eugene:
Remind me again why you feel you don't have to believe that there actually exist any species with four feet that fly? Remember, according to your own testimony, your salvation depends on your believing these words to be inerrantly inspired and perfectly accurate. On the other hand, you are strictly charged to rightly divide the word of truth, so its not right to arbitrarily make up an interpretation that doesn't really make sense, such as that one of the pairs of the legs aren't really legs, or something silly like that.

Click to expand...

Paul,

I believe that if God said there are creatures with four feet that fly then it is so. I don't have to know to what creatures He referred.

But the man who says the text was wrong admits that he does not believe Moses. And Jesus said you can't believe on Him without believing the writings of Moses.

Mark Osgatharp

Mark, what evidence do you have that the day before the flood was exactly 24 hours?

Prov. 10:19, "When there are many words, transgression is unavoidable, But he who restrains his lips is wise."

Originally posted by gb93433:
Mark, what evidence do you have that the day before the flood was exactly 24 hours?

Click to expand...

"The evening and the morning were the first day."

What evidence do you have that Moses intended to convey any other concept of a "day" in this passage than what we define as a "24 hour" period?

Mark Osgatharp

From Leviticus, you quoted,

Leviticus 11:22-23 "Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind. But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you. " (KJV)

Click to expand...

The NIV translation uses the phrase "which walk on all fours." And some commentators theorize that hind legs used for jumping might not have been counted as "ordinary" legs by OT writers.

Originally posted by CalvinG:
From Leviticus, you quoted, </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Leviticus 11:22-23 "Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind. But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you. " (KJV)

Click to expand...

The NIV translation uses the phrase "which walk on all fours." And some commentators theorize that hind legs used for jumping might not have been counted as "ordinary" legs by OT writers. </font>[/QUOTE]Pssst . . . notice . . . the OTHER flying creeping things which have four feet don't HAVE those jumping legs.