Seed of Abraham

We are sons of Abraham, that is clear. We are children of promise, that is clear. Romans 2:29 says that we are spiritual Jews.
Eph. 2:12 says: "at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world." Scripture says we are now partakers of the commonwealth of Israel and the covenants of promise.

I keep saying the covenant and promises were not annulled, they were fulfilled in the true Israel...Jesus Christ! He kept the law covenant which Israel broke so that the blessing of the Abrahamic covenant could be justly be given to Abrahams true children by faith! All the promises of God are yes and amen IN CHRIST! 2Cor.1:20

 

So where is the land promise (including the restoration to the land along with the rebuilding of the city) fulfilled in Jesus Christ? (I asked you before and perhaps you overlooked it.) This land promise was given to Abraham and reiterated to Jews for 15 centuries after that. It is what the disciples expected, and Jesus did not try to dissuade them.

Eph 2:12 is the only difficult passage for this position. I think there is an explanation and I don't think you throw out the explicit passages in favor of this one difficult one.

 

My dear brother, again you are talking about passages which appear explicit during the Old Testament era. If we did not have the New Testament scriptures, we would be still be looking for many explicit things to take place that are fulfilled in or by Christ. Are you still looking for Elijah to precede the first Advent of Christ? Or does Jesus tell us who was really prophecied about--John the Baptist. The New Testament tells us how to interpret the Old Testament. I have given you many scriptures where the Apostles quote directly from the Old Testament, describing the proper interpretation for fulfillment of those texts and ascribe them directly to Christ and those who are in Him. I used to be a Dispensationalist, so don't think I have been always closed to the arguments you give, I didn't start with a presupposition then go to scripture, I just began to see how that everything revolves around Jesus Christ. Redemptive history is in the pattern of Promise/Fulfillment and Christ is the supreme focus of everything the Old Testament discussed. I could see how the New Testament continually treated the benefits which we now have in Christ to be the fulfillment of the promises. Let's not look in the newspaper to see how prophetic events are coming along, let's look at Jesus and enjoy what he purchased for us by His blood.

 

Did you read your statement???

You said:

1. We are all one Israel,the church is Israel.
2. Israel is a nation of people through Jacob's 12 sons,not a geographic location.

The church is not a nation through Jacob's 12 sons. The church is made up of people from all nations. You made two contradictory statements. Which do you believe? Is Israel the church or a nation of the descendants of Jacob?

The answer is that your latter statement is true. Every use in Scripture of "Israel" refers to the ethnic descendants of Abraham through Jacob, whether truly saved or not. The church is distinctly different. Gal 3 teaches there is no longer Jew or Gentile in the church. </font>[/QUOTE]Ok.I'll try one last time to spell it out for you.The Lord Himself[Jesus]changed Jacob's name to Israel.Jacob had 12 sons of which one was Judah.Judah was the house of David and the birth family of Jesus Christ.This is the original family tree for God's family on earth UNTIL Jesus Christ provided the Passover sacrafice and Ressurection for all nations[tribes] of the earth.The so called "church"includes people from all tribes grafted into the original family tree[Jacob]Look at the Greek word meaning for church and it means "called out ones" not Baptist,Methodist,Pentacostal,ect.Moses was a member of the church as was King David of Israel.ANYONE connected to the body of Jesus Christ through faith is a Jew.Romans 2:29 The "church" origin is from Jesus Christ through the house of Jacob.

 

Ephes. 2:11-22 (ESV)
[11]Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— [12] remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. [13] But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. [14] For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility [15] by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, [16] and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. [17] And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. [18] For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. [19] So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [20] built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, [21] in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. [22] In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.


What God has joined together, let man not separate.

 

Thank you for a great post!

 

And they were explicity.

And not a one of them necessitates the conclusion that you have come to. You have read that into the text.

I rather think everything revolves around the glory of God.

I agree.

 

Okay.

No problem.

[qutoe]Jacob had 12 sons of which one was Judah.[/quote]No problem.

No problem.

Big problems here. Notice your huge jump with absolutely no scriptural support.

The church does not include people "from all tribes" but rather from all nations. By virtue of coming from another nation, they did not come from the nation of Israel. This is part one of your contradiction. Someone who is not a descendant of Abraham's seed cannot be a descendant of Abraham's seed.

The church does include people from all nations, including Jews. That however does not annul the promises that God made to the Jews.

To say that Moses is a part of teh church fails to consider the progressive revelation. The church was a mystery in teh OT (Eph 3; Col 1). It was non-existent because Spirit baptism, its forming agent did not exist.

Rom 2:29 tells us that unbelieving Jews are not true Jews. It says nothing about non-Jews becoming Jews.

The church originated at Pentecost through Christ. Jews and Gentiles are one in teh church.

Your theology is simply inconsistent with itself and with the text. I really don't know how much simpler this can be. Israel is not the church. Read Rom 11 and insert "church" everytime you see "Israel" and you will see the nonsense that turns up.

 

I agree absolutely and every dispensationalist does. But remember the context. The people at Ephesus that Paul was writing to was the church. That does not mean that God will fail to keep his promises to the nation.

All of you guys keep talking about these promises fulfilled in Christ, but you have yet to show how the land and the promised restoration to the land along with teh superiority of the nation of Israel is fulfilled in Christ. If you are right, I don't see how God can be telling the truth in the prophets.

 

.To say that Moses is a part of teh church fails to consider the progressive revelation. The church was a mystery in teh OT (Eph 3; Col 1). It was non-existent because Spirit baptism, its forming agent did not exist

God's leaders in the O/T were filled with the Holy Spirit.
examples: Daniel 5:11
Davidsalm 51:11
Elijah:2 Kings:2:9
Zacharais:Luke 1:67
John the Baptist:Luke 1:15

The doctrine adopted by the modern church that the Holy Spirit did not come until the day of Pentacost fails the scripture test.All of these examples are of people before Jesus Christ was born in the flesh body on this earth.

 

Weren't the restoration to the land promises in the Old Testament fulfilled in the return from Babylonian captivity?

 

Posted by Pastor Larry:

In this you are correct. The Church is a brand new creation. When the Holy Spirit came in Acts 2 the New Covenant had begun in earnest. Read this whole chapter. But notice Pastor Larry that verses 30-35 show the fulfillment of the promise to David in Psalm 132:11 that Christ would sit on the throne of David. Not at some future time in Jerusalem but at the right hand of the Father. Verse 31 says that David foreseeing this spoke of the resurrection! Verse 33 says that after the ascension, He recieved the promise of the Holy Spirit and poured it out on the newborn Church. Again, this seems so obvious that this is the fulfillment of all that was prophesied to Israel.
Read closely these verses in Acts 3:

18But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.
24Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. 25You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, "And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.' 26To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities." If you are honest about "progressive revelation" you will read these verses as fulfillment and not as an age of an interuption in, or a suspension of God's plan for physical Israel.

 

Weren't the restoration to the land promises in the Old Testament fulfilled in the return from Babylonian captivity? </font>[/QUOTE]No, for several reasons. First, the land promise involved full inhabitation of the land in peace and superiority over all other nations under a righteous and loving King--the Messiah, the servant of God. Second, the description of the post-exilic inhabitation of the land does not match the description that the prophets give, meaning that either the prophets mislead the people or that there was another inhabitation intended. Third, the land promise is repeated in the post-exilic prophets to the nation already in the land. Fourth, there was no time in the post-exilic era that the nation fully inhabited the land promised. Fifth, there was no time in the post-exilic era that a davidic king ruled on the throne over a land at rest from it enemies. (This was a major plank of the Davidic covenant.)

 

Then why weren't the house of Judah and the house of Israel given new hearts as Jeremiah 31 said they would be??

So answer me this: Which of these verses in this chapter show Christ sitting on the Davidic throne?? The only reference I see is to Christ sitting at the right hand of the Father, a place where David never sat. In fact, Rev 3 shows that the throne of the Father and the throne of Christ are two different thrones, not the same one. That David spoke of the resurrection is clear. That resurrection was necessary for Christ to rule. However, notice that the passage does not say that Christ was ruling on David's throne. You have read that in; it is not there.

How can you say this is the fulfillment of "all" that was promised to Israel?? Have you read through the prophets and listed all that was promised?? There was restoration to the land; prosperity in the land; abundant crops contrasted with the famine; peace in the land (swords turned to plowshares); superiority over the nations, etc. How is "all" of that contained in the outpouring of the Spirit on the church??

So why did you skip vv. 19-23?? Let's look at them shall we???

Answer these questions??

1. Who is being addressed?? (v. 12) -- The men of Israel?? Do you really think that "Israel" means the church (as many of you claim)? Or does Israel mean the ethnic group?? Of course, the answer is obvious. Israel, like it does everywhere else, refers to the ethnic seed of the nation.

2. Notice the call to repentance?? If Israel in the NT was really the church, why would you call the church to repentance?? Isn't a fundamental prerequisite to entering the church, the new Israel, repentance?? Of course it is. You have Peter calling the church to repent and accept the Messiah, something they should have already done. This is yet another proof that "Israel" is a reference to the nation of Jews, not the church.

3. Notice the reference to the "restoration of all things" that will come when Israel repents and returns?? What is this a restoration of?? Some people say it is the eternal state of bliss for all believers. Yet think with me. "Restoration" means it existed before. How could something that never existed be restored?? It can't be. Therefore, whatever is in view is something that previously happened?

4. Notice that whatever is being talked about was promised by the prophets from ancient times. What is this?? When you read the prophets you cannot hardly help but be struck by the promised of Israel being restored to the land in peace and prosperity, with the outpouring of God's rich blessings, while living under the loving rule of the Messiah, the servant of God. That is what the prophets prophesied about and that is what the disciples expected -- a return of the kingdom (Acts 1:6).

4. Notice v. 21. This "restoration" cannot happen yet. Jesus must be received into heaven for a period of time "until" this happens. Then after this "period of time," Christ will be sent from heaven. Therefore, the restoration did not happen at the ascension. It happens at the return.

This prophet is none other than Christ.

In other words, by omitting this passage and by failing to understand the OT context which it references and the audience which it addresses, you have read some things into the text which cannot stand.

Where is this fulfilled?? Where is the restoration?? When did Christ return to set up this restoration after being in heaven for a period of time?? I do not see the men of Israel having repented and returned as the text says that the must and as the prophets prophesied that they will (cf. Zech 12). I do not see a restoration of anything during this age. Do you really think this world we are living in is what the OT prophets meant by prophesying an age of peace, tranquility, and prosperity, under the rule of a King--the Messiah--who will rule in loving justice and sovereignty over the people whose fathers broke the Mosaic covenant (Jer 31:32)??? Can you really, with a straight face and honest mind, say this resembles anything that the OT prophets prophesied about and that Peter preached about??

Let me ask you in closing: Did the men of Israel in Acts 3 repent and return so that Christ could come and restore all things?? (Hint: Read chatper 4 to see their response). The obvious answer is no. So think about this: The promise of restoration is clearly contigent on the repentance and return of the nation of Israel (just as Zech 12 said it would be). Yet these men did not repent. In fact they heightened and increased their rejection. So how in the world do you apply this verse to this age when the basic requirements of the promise were not met???

This text is a text that you must destroy in order not to be a premillennialist. Answer these questions and use the biblical text to do it.

 

Hebrews 11:8-10 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritiance, obeyed, and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of the promise, as in in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations , whose builder and maker is God."

Abraham went out of his country by called from God. He have faith in the Lord, he does not know where he goes. He was looking forward for a city - which have foundation- a maker is God. He was not looking forward for OLD Jerusalem on OLD earth. He was looking forward for New Jerusalem. New Jerusalem shall be descend from heaven and will land on the new earth - Rev. 21:1-2. That would be at the second advent.

In 2 Peter 3:12-13 tell us, that we are looking forward for new heavens and a new earth that would be at the coming of the Lord, not suppose 1000 years later after the second advent. Old heaven and old earth shall be pass away at the coming of the Lord - 2 Peter 3:10, 12-13.

Christ shall not reign in old present city - Jerusalem. Christ shall reign in New Jerusalem on a new earth for eternality kingdom.

Didn't you know that we are now part of Abraham's seed? In Gal. 3:14 - "That the blessing of Abraham might on the GENTILES through(what??) Jesus Christ, that we might receive the(what??) PROMISE of the the Spirit through(what??)FAITH."

It tells us, that we as Gentile Christians who already faith in Jesus Christ, we are part of the seed through Christ.

Gal 3:16 - "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds of many; but as of ONE, And to THY SEED, WHICH IS CHRIST."

We already have faith in Jesus Christ, we are part of the seed through Jesus Christ.

Gal. 3:22 - "But the scripture hath concluded ALL under sin, (so....) that the PROMISE by(what??)FAITH of Jesus Christ might be given to them that(result of what??)BELIEVE."

It tells us, the scripture written that we are all have sinned - Romans 3:10, 23; we are doomed, BUT, that the promise given by Jesus Christ to us, through what? whosoever BELIEVE on Jesus Christ. We are saved by the faith only, not by work - Eph. 2:8-9.

Abraham was saved by believed in Christ, not by work - Gal 3:5 - "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

Apostle Paul quoted from Gen. 15:6 - "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

Also, Gen. 15:6 refers with Romans 4:3-5. Romans 4:3 says, "For what the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." Abraham was saved by believed on the Lord. Romans 4:4-5 says, "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. BUT to him that worketh not, but BELIEVETH on him that justifieth the undgodly, his faith is counted for righeousness."

Romans 4:3-5 tells us, Abraham was saved by BELIEVE on the Lord, not by works. Same with Eph. 2:8-9.

The plan of Ephesisans 2:8-9 have nothing change since from creation to the end of the world. The plan of the salvation never change since from creation to the end of the world. All Old Testament saints are saved by believed in the Lord, same as all New Testament saints are saved by believed in the Lord. Nothing change.

Gal. 3:26 - "For ye are ALL children of God by(what??) FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS."

It is very clear tell us, that we are ALL children of God. Even, also, ALL OLd Testament saints are children of God, whosoever faith in Jesus Christ.

There is only ONE family in the heaven. We only have ONE Father in Heaven is God. Jesus is deity as God.

Gal. 3:28-29 - "There is NEITHER Jew NOR Greek, there is NEITHER bond NOR free, there is NEITHER male NOR female: for ye are ALL ONE inChrist Jesus. And if ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the PROMISE."


Gal. 3:28-29 is very clear tell us, both either Jew or Gentile who believe in Jesus Christ, ALL are ONE in Jesus Christ! So, therefore, we are part of Abraham's seed!

Therefore, all O.T. saints and N.T. saints are part in the body of Christ is the Church, because all believed in Jesus Christ through the faith only.

Is there so hard to read the scriptures about Abraham's seed?

There is none anywhere in the New Testament saying that Jews will posses the land at the second advent for the millennial kingdom. Both Jews and Gentiles who believed in Jesus Christ, they are now heirs according to the promise(Gal. 3:29).

That mean, all O.T. saints and N.T. saints will share the promise, that we shall dwell in New Jerusalem, also, on a new earth is an eternality kingdom shall be occur at the second advent.

That is simple. Is there so hard to read the scripture talk about Abraham's seed? You have to accept what the scripture saying so.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Hebrews 11:8-10 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritiance, obeyed, and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of the promise, as in in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations , whose builder and maker is God."

Abraham went out of his country by called from God. He have faith in the Lord, he does not know where he goes. He was looking forward for a city - which have foundation- a maker is God. He was not looking forward for OLD Jerusalem on OLD earth. He was looking forward for New Jerusalem. New Jerusalem shall be descend from heaven and will land on the new earth - Rev. 21:1-2. That would be at the second advent.

In 2 Peter 3:12-13 tell us, that we are looking forward for new heavens and a new earth that would be at the coming of the Lord, not suppose 1000 years later after the second advent. Old heaven and old earth shall be pass away at the coming of the Lord - 2 Peter 3:10, 12-13.

Christ shall not reign in old present city - Jerusalem. Christ shall reign in New Jerusalem on a new earth for eternality kingdom.

Didn't you know that we are now part of Abraham's seed? In Gal. 3:14 - "That the blessing of Abraham might on the GENTILES through(what??) Jesus Christ, that we might receive the(what??) PROMISE of the the Spirit through(what??)FAITH."

It tells us, that we as Gentile Christians who already faith in Jesus Christ, we are part of the seed through Christ.

Gal 3:16 - "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds of many; but as of ONE, And to THY SEED, WHICH IS CHRIST."

We already have faith in Jesus Christ, we are part of the seed through Jesus Christ.

Gal. 3:22 - "But the scripture hath concluded ALL under sin, (so....) that the PROMISE by(what??)FAITH of Jesus Christ might be given to them that(result of what??)BELIEVE."

It tells us, the scripture written that we are all have sinned - Romans 3:10, 23; we are doomed, BUT, that the promise given by Jesus Christ to us, through what? whosoever BELIEVE on Jesus Christ. We are saved by the faith only, not by work - Eph. 2:8-9.

Abraham was saved by believed in Christ, not by work - Gal 3:5 - "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

Apostle Paul quoted from Gen. 15:6 - "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

Also, Gen. 15:6 refers with Romans 4:3-5. Romans 4:3 says, "For what the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." Abraham was saved by believed on the Lord. Romans 4:4-5 says, "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. BUT to him that worketh not, but BELIEVETH on him that justifieth the undgodly, his faith is counted for righeousness."

Romans 4:3-5 tells us, Abraham was saved by BELIEVE on the Lord, not by works. Same with Eph. 2:8-9.

The plan of Ephesisans 2:8-9 have nothing change since from creation to the end of the world. The plan of the salvation never change since from creation to the end of the world. All Old Testament saints are saved by believed in the Lord, same as all New Testament saints are saved by believed in the Lord. Nothing change.

Gal. 3:26 - "For ye are ALL children of God by(what??) FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS."

It is very clear tell us, that we are ALL children of God. Even, also, ALL OLd Testament saints are children of God, whosoever faith in Jesus Christ.

There is only ONE family in the heaven. We only have ONE Father in Heaven is God. Jesus is deity as God.

Gal. 3:28-29 - "There is NEITHER Jew NOR Greek, there is NEITHER bond NOR free, there is NEITHER male NOR female: for ye are ALL ONE inChrist Jesus. And if ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the PROMISE."


Gal. 3:28-29 is very clear tell us, both either Jew or Gentile who believe in Jesus Christ, ALL are ONE in Jesus Christ! So, therefore, we are part of Abraham's seed!

Therefore, all O.T. saints and N.T. saints are part in the body of Christ is the Church, because all believed in Jesus Christ through the faith only.

Is there so hard to read the scriptures about Abraham's seed?

There is none anywhere in the New Testament saying that Jews will posses the land at the second advent for the millennial kingdom. Both Jews and Gentiles who believed in Jesus Christ, they are now heirs according to the promise(Gal. 3:29).

That mean, all O.T. saints and N.T. saints will share the promise, that we shall dwell in New Jerusalem, also, on a new earth is an eternality kingdom shall be occur at the second advent.

That is simple. Is there so hard to read the scripture talk about Abraham's seed? You have to accept what the scripture saying so.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Pastor Larry said:

I have not denied that Abrahams physical seed is often adressed in the New Testament. Obviously in Acts 2 the Jews are adressed directly. But Paul clearly lays out that these branches were in the process of being broken off so that the Spiritual seed composed of both Jew and Gentile together, would become the prophecied nation of God. Just who is that holy nation?

Matthew 21:43
"Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it."

John 11:52
and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad."

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light"
This verse is in direct fulfillment of Exodus 19:6 and Deut.7:6!!

This is the progress of redemptive history in fulfilling the purposes of God. The New Testament does not look to the physical nation for fulfillment of what was promised. Romans 11 does discuss the fallen nation and hold out the promise to them as well, but only through the Gospel and always alongside the Gentiles in the New Covenant church! The way this chapter is worded, there could even be a great revival among them(v.15). However, they only obtain mercy in conjunction with the mercy shown to the Gentiles.(v31-32) Paul then breaks out into worship because now the heathen nations are used to bring the fallen nation back to it's Covenant God through the Gospel! As he starts chapter 12, he uses "therefore" to connect his upcoming instructions to the previous truth he just discussed. He tells the Romans to live holy lives. Why? Partly to provoke the Jews to jealousy and save some of them!
Once more, in Rom. 15:8-12, Paul places the purposes of God for the Jews and Gentiles together.
Soli Deo Gloria.

 

Hello,

I am sorry, but did I miss the conclusion of this thread? Which one is it now? Who is the seed of Abraham?

Felix

 

Threads don't reach conclusions. The various sides empty their ammunition at each other and then...that's all folks!

 

You can take everything Pastor Larry said & frame it, for it was Biblical truth!

(or in other words, you can bank on it, LOL!)