Ring ring -- reality calling.

If you do not see in the text of Romans 9 and 10 that Paul is making the comparison between the Jew and the Gentile reception of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, then there is little that anyone can do for you. There is none so blind as he who will not see!

And Yes, I would give you the guest of honor seat at my dinner table, just before I fed you and threw you from my 16th floor balcony. JUST KIDDING!!!!

Of Course, even if we are not often friendly in what we post, you are my brother in Christ so long as you proclaim that Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah!

 

Here is the logical argument:

1. All men are living according to the flesh until God intervenes with the quickening of the Holy Spirit. (Eph. 2)

2. All those who live according to the flesh are unable please God and are hostile toHim. (Roman 8)

3. Responding positively to the gospel message requires non-hostility to God, and is also something that pleases God.

Therefore, until God intervenes with His quickening, all men are unable to respond positively to the gospel messge.

I believe that the hardening of God is simply God preserving things as they already are. I would base that in part on Deuteronomy 29:2-4 (one of the passage quoted in Romans 11).

You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt....the great trials which you eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders. Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.

God's hardening involves inactivity rather than activity. He blinds by not giving eyes to see, He deafens by not giving ears to hear, He hardens by not softening their hearts so that their hearts perceive.

So I think you've got it backward when you say God "leaves" the remnant and the gentiles "unhardened". He leaves the rest as they are, and to the elect remnant and the elect Gentiles, He gives hearts to perceive, eyes to see and ears to hear.

Where do you come up with the idea that God "uniquely" hardens Israel?

As to redundency--I simply think it is saying the same thing in two different ways, and I think they way Paul quotes the Deuteronomy passage proves as much. God decision not to soften, not to enlighten, not to undeafen ensures they remain hardened against Him. It preserves them in a hardened state, and is exactly the same thing as hardening, blinding, deafening.

 

And to and about whom is Deuteronomy written?

 

It is written about the Isrealites. But Pharoah wasn't an Isrealite was he?

 

Originally posted by russell55:
(my responses in bold)

1. All men are living according to the flesh until God intervenes with the quickening of the Holy Spirit. (Eph. 2) You assume this "quickening" is not a result of faith.

2. All those who live according to the flesh are unable please God and are hostile toHim. (Roman 8)
You assume they are unable to hear the gospel and have faith in Christ while in the flesh.

3. Responding positively to the gospel message requires non-hostility to God, and is also something that pleases God.
Without faith its impossible to please God, as Hebrews teaches us, but the opposite is also true, with faith one can please God. Your assuming that one can't go from being unpleasing to God to becoming pleasing to God through faith. This verse does not speak of how one can go from being not pleasing to being pleasing, it merely states a fact that a man in the flesh is unpleasing. This verse does not address the issue. It's alot like 2 Peter 3:9 that many Arminians use as if it disproves Calvinism, it doesn't because it only speaks of God's desire or pleasure it does not speak of "how one is saved," which is our debate!

You really have to paste that together there, don't you? If I can pull something from this verse that says, "the lost are unable to please God" and tie it to a verse that says, "God makes us alive." I can form a theological system that causes disunity and confusion in the church for dozens of years!

One big problem with you logically conclusions. They are based upon assumptions that are not supported in the text. It never says that natual man cannot respond to God's geniune call through the gospel. Never. Keep in mind that the gospel is God's power unto salvation. It is the means by which he seeks us out. It was his solution to our sinful hearts. To say that it does not have the ability to accomplish its purpose in the lives of everyone it encouters is a big claim that needs support from scripture.

That's nice for you to think that about God, but it's not what the bible says:

Rom 11:8 just as it is written, "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."

Jhn 12:40 "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM." (just to name a few)

Are you redefining hardening? According to most scholars hardening is a process that begins when men allow sin to continue to reign in their life while rejecting God's truths. They begin by choosing to ignore what they see and hear from God, and God is patient with them, but after a time he "hardens" them. This is an active verb, not passive as you have stated. It is a decree of God that the prophets and the apostles declare as an active part of his plan in redemption. God is not just "letting people do what comes naturally" as you assume. He is blinding them and veiling the message from their ears and eyes so as to graft in the Gentiles because they rebelled against his truths.

Plus, you view doesn't make any sense in the light of the fact that the Hardening has a beginning and an ending. Look at this passage:

Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in

The hardening is temporary, so to say that they were hardened in the Fall and that is unchanging is not consistant with this view.

If you read these passages it tells us what "might" happen if the Israelites were not hardened and then contrasts them to the Gentiles who are obviously different:

Act 28:26 saying, 'GO TO THIS PEOPLE AND SAY, "YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; AND YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
Act 28:27 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES; OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES, AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'"
Act 28:28 "Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen."

Notice that the Gentiles are contrasted with hardened Israel. It says, Israel cannot hear, but the Gentiles can.

Also, notice what it says is the natural state of someone who has not been hardened by God: OTHERWISE
1. THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
2. AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
3. AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART
4. AND RETURN,
5. AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'"

This is what can happen to one who can hear; ones who are not hardened. The Gentiles, according to this verse, can hear. Therefore they cannot have been hardened like the Israelites have been.

With Respect,
Bill

 

No, this particular statement has no assumption in it. It is simply a restatement of the text, which says:

...You were dead in your transgressions...indulging the desires of the
flesh...

and

God....made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions....

We were dead in transgressions, living according to the flesh when we were made alive.

Once again, no assumption in this statement. Simply a restatement of the text:

The mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God....those who are in the flesh cannot please God

This one is indeed an assumption, but the assumption is not what you think it is, but rather this: It is impossible to have faith in God (respond positively to the gospel) as long as one is hostile to God. (Do you disagree?)

If is is impossible to have faith as long as one is hostile to God, then it is impossible to have faith as long as one is living according to the flesh...and if it is impossible to have faith as long as one is living according to the flesh, then it is impossible to have faith as long as one is dead in transgression.....and if it is impossible to have faith as long as one is dead in trangressions, then it is impossible to have faith until one is quickened....

It is all simply an exercise in simple logic. The only place where there is room for disagreement is if you don't think I restated the first two points accurately from the text, or if you don't agree with my assumption that it is impossible to have faith as long as one is hostile to God.

It says that the natural man is hostile to God. That the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God, that he does not accept them because they are foolishness to him. It certainly seems clear to me that not being able to understand the things of the Spirit, that finding them foolish and thus not accepting them precludes responding positively to the gospel.

The gospel is God's power unto salvation to those who are called, and a stumbling block and foolishness to those who aren't. It is God's calling in conjunction with the presentation of the gospel that results in salvation.

Do you have scripture to support this statement? Isn't the drawing of the Holy Spirit the means by which he seeks us out?

His solution to our sinful hearts is the inner work of the Holy Spirit.... circumsion of the heart....being made into a new creature...having new hearts.... having a new nature

The gospel always accomplishes its purpose...as a stumbling block to the Jews, as foolishness to the gentiles, but to those who are called, as the power of God...

Here's what I am pointing out: The second part of that verse (eyes to see not and ears to hear not, down to this very day) is Paul quoting Deut 29 where it says: ...the Lord has not given you...eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day...

Paul is the one doing the redefining....and I would think it is reasonable to conclude that he is not really redefining at all, but that the two things, not giving eyes to see and ears to hear, and giving eyes to see not and ears to hear not are exactly the same thing.

No it doesn't. It says Israel cannot hear, but the Gentiles WILL It does not say that the ability to hear is natural to any of the Gentiles... The 1 Corinthians passage I quote above says that the gospel the power of God to the Gentiles who are called--but to the rest it is foolishness.

 

It is written about the Isrealites. But Pharoah wasn't an Isrealite was he? </font>[/QUOTE]You answered correctly the "about whom", but you did not answer the "To whom" part of the question. Here's a clue, It was not written to the Pharoah.