Where do you stand?

Originally posted by Bro. James Reed:
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

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Malachi, chapter 1 (from which this verse comes) makes it quite clear. Jacob is symbolic of Jacob, while Esau is symbolic of Edom. Continue to read and you'll see exactly why He hated Edom... (disobedience, not because of an intrensic hatability)

perhaps both the calvinistic and arminian interpretations of their favorite proof texts are correct, and we're just too stupid to comprehend it all.

so evangelize like an arminian, but concerning your own salvation have the humility of a calvinist.

Originally posted by massdak:
it is interesting that some believe God draws all mankind, how about those who never hear the gospel? explain please

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You're asking Jesus to explain, I take it. The quotation was from John 12:32. Jesus said it; how can a Bible-believing Christian not believe it? That is for you to explain.

Haruo

amen, haruo.

You're asking Jesus to explain, I take it. The quotation was from John 12:32. Jesus said it; how can a Bible-believing Christian not believe it? That is for you to explain.

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John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The word "men" is italicised, meaning that it is not present in the koine text. Therefore "all" what? is a legitimate question.

All men?
All the elect?
All created beings?
All - the entire material universe?

HankD

good point, hankd.

Originally posted by HankD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> You're asking Jesus to explain, I take it. The quotation was from John 12:32. Jesus said it; how can a Bible-believing Christian not believe it? That is for you to explain.

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John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The word "men" is italicised, meaning that it is not present in the koine text. Therefore "all" what? is a legitimate question.

All men?
All the elect?
All created beings?
All - the entire material universe?

HankD </font>[/QUOTE]what does this verse mean to you&gt;&gt;&gt;Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

sounds to me all the the father draws will be raised up at the last day.
what about the unsaved?

Originally posted by gb93433:
You cannot separate the sin from the sinner. They go together.

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I'm sorry, but the Bible disagrees with you. He has thrown my sins away as far as the east is from the west, and that's not a circle.

But me, He has kept. And loved.

Psalm 103:11-13

Originally posted by Helen:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by gb93433:
You cannot separate the sin from the sinner. They go together.

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I'm sorry, but the Bible disagrees with you. He has thrown my sins away as far as the east is from the west, and that's not a circle.

But me, He has kept. And loved.

Psalm 103:11-13 </font>[/QUOTE]yes hellen that is for a saved person, but those in hell are in there with thier sin too

Originally posted by Bro. James Reed:
Romans 9

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

God does not love everyone. Case closed. BTW, you can also see in vs. 16 how the freewill theory is thrown out of the window.

I am just happy that He had pity and love for me and adopted me into His family.

God Bless His children is my prayer. Bro. James

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I believe that if you look at the historical context of Romans 9 it is directed directly at the Jews. To imply that it applies to individuals in Amerfica is an application that I am not always comfortable with. Certainly God has created the way He chooses. But in His choice He gives us the choice to follow Him. If that were not the case then why are there so many third class conditional statements and imperatives directed at God's people and churches of the day. Some might say there is a tension there. I am not sure the tension is as great as some would believe. It'smuch like the choice a farmer makes when he places a cow in a green pasture. The cow can choose to roam within the confines of the green pasture or to try and reach through the fence giving the appearance that the grass is greener on the other side.

Dear massdak,

You asked...

what does this verse mean to you&gt;&gt;&gt;Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

sounds to me all the the father draws will be raised up at the last day.
what about the unsaved?

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What does this verse mean to me?

Quite a bit, I came out of a Church of Rome background, plagued with doubt and uncertainty.
This passage was/is a great comfort to me in that it is one more Scripture through which the Spirit convicts me that my salvation is not under my control.

What about the unsaved?
I'll give you the answer Jesus gave ...

...what is that to thee? follow thou me.

That is not to say that I don't bear witness when the Spirit leads as I follow Him.


HankD

Originally posted by HankD:
Dear massdak,

You asked...

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> what does this verse mean to you&gt;&gt;&gt;Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

sounds to me all the the father draws will be raised up at the last day.
what about the unsaved?

Click to expand...

What does this verse mean to me?

Quite a bit, I came out of a Church of Rome background, plagued with doubt and uncertainty.
This passage was/is a great comfort to me in that it is one more Scripture through which the Spirit convicts me that my salvation is not under my control.

What about the unsaved?
I'll give you the answer Jesus gave ...

...what is that to thee? follow thou me.

That is not to say that I don't bear witness when the Spirit leads as I follow Him.


HankD </font>[/QUOTE]hank we have a fundamental disagreement on the drawing of man by God. you believe that all men are drawn to God, with some believing and others not.
i believe that the scriptures support that not all are drawn. Jesus told the pharisees that unless you are drawn by the Father you will not come. this angered greatly the pharisees. i forgot the verse but will look it up

Dear massdak,

You posted…

hank we have a fundamental disagreement on the drawing of man by God. you believe that all men are drawn to God, with some believing and others not.
i believe that the scriptures support that not all are drawn. Jesus told the pharisees that unless you are drawn by the Father you will not come. this angered greatly the pharisees. i forgot the verse but will look it up

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Perhaps you are thinking of John 5?

In any event I have highlighted the parts of this passage to illustrate the Sovereignty of God working with the responsibility of man.

John 5:
33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you:for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

At one time they were “drawn” in that they rejoiced for a season…
But then when they came to the door of salvation (Jesus), they would/could not believe.

Jesus said "will not come to me" not "cannot come to me".

I don’t pretend to know how this seeming paradox works.

HankD

my question is when God draws man to Him, does some want to seek Him and others dont? what causes some to want to seek God when drawn and others not too?

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When a sinner is shown his sin, he will either REBEL or REPENT. God does not violate our free will.

I agree Sue. Good post!

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44 (KJV)

I believe that one of the problems here is the understanding of what the word "draw" means. Could it be that God uses the presentation of the Gospel to "draw" these people to Himself? If so, is it not also possible that each person has free will within this context to either accept or reject this salvation offered from God?


"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16 (KJV)

Originally posted by HankD:
Dear massdak,

You posted…

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> hank we have a fundamental disagreement on the drawing of man by God. you believe that all men are drawn to God, with some believing and others not.
i believe that the scriptures support that not all are drawn. Jesus told the pharisees that unless you are drawn by the Father you will not come. this angered greatly the pharisees. i forgot the verse but will look it up

Click to expand...

Perhaps you are thinking of John 5?

In any event I have highlighted the parts of this passage to illustrate the Sovereignty of God working with the responsibility of man.

John 5:
33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you:for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

At one time they were “drawn” in that they rejoiced for a season…
But then when they came to the door of salvation (Jesus), they would/could not believe.

Jesus said "will not come to me" not "cannot come to me".

I don’t pretend to know how this seeming paradox works.

HankD </font>[/QUOTE]maybe we are close to agreement, it is a mystery as how this all is reconciled. but it would seem that God has a general call via the gospel message toward salvation, yet God would have to deal with a persons heart as he did with lydia in order for one to receive the gospel message and believe. but if God opens a persons heart are you saying they still would reject the message. I do not believe scripture supports that.

Someone said earlier that Calvinism was "dangerous." While I am not a card-carrying Calvinist, I see nothing harmful about the belief system, rightly understood. As for free will, I think this term is thrown around casually without really defining what it means. This is why we often get into arguments about it. If we interpret free will as the power of absolute self-determination, then free will does not exist (even in America). We are always acting under one influence or another, thus our choices are not free, strictly speaking. However, we do possess moral responsibility, as the Bible makes clear over and over again. And this is not merely a matter of semantics. "Free will" implies an autonomy we do not possess, while "moral responsibility" suggests that even when we are acted upon by outside forces, we are still accountable for how we respond to them. We cannot blame God, the devil, or other people for our actions.

One excellent example of this is 2 Samuel 24, where God "incites" David to take a census of Israel. David goes through with the census and is punished by the Lord. Why? Wasn't David just doing what God wanted him to do? The answer seems to be that although God moved David to undertake the census, the king was held accountable for the pride and self-importance that was in his own heart. He was not fully free in his actions, but he was accountable, and David recognized his own guilt in the matter (24:10; for similar examples, see 1 Samuel 2:25; Ezekiel 14:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:11; Revelation 17:17). God was sovereign over David's actions, but the king was rightly held responsible for what he did.

Originally posted by DCK:
Someone said earlier that Calvinism was "dangerous." While I am not a card-carrying Calvinist, I see nothing harmful about the belief system, rightly understood. As for free will, I think this term is thrown around casually without really defining what it means. This is why we often get into arguments about it. If we interpret free will as the power of absolute self-determination, then free will does not exist (even in America). We are always acting under one influence or another, thus our choices are not free, strictly speaking. However, we do possess moral responsibility, as the Bible makes clear over and over again. And this is not merely a matter of semantics. "Free will" implies an autonomy we do not possess, while "moral responsibility" suggests that even when we are acted upon by outside forces, we are still accountable for how we respond to them. We cannot blame God, the devil, or other people for our actions.

One excellent example of this is 2 Samuel 24, where God "incites" David to take a census of Israel. David goes through with the census and is punished by the Lord. Why? Wasn't David just doing what God wanted him to do? The answer seems to be that although God moved David to undertake the census, the king was held accountable for the pride and self-importance that was in his own heart. He was not fully free in his actions, but he was accountable, and David recognized his own guilt in the matter (24:10; for similar examples, see 1 Samuel 2:25; Ezekiel 14:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:11; Revelation 17:17). God was sovereign over David's actions, but the king was rightly held responsible for what he did.

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that is interesting, i will look into that more. thank you for your post

. but if God opens a persons heart are you saying they still would reject the message. I do not believe scripture supports that.

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"Would" reject or "could" reject?

In either case and to be honest, I don't know for sure, but my inclination is to say NO!. I guess I am inclined torwards irresistable grace in spite of "choose you this day whom ye shall serve".

But on the other hand, an eternity of pain and suffering for an individual seems severe as a retribution for not being able to produce something (saving faith) that is impossible for that individual to produce because God would not provide it (saving faith).
This SEEMS to be a contradiction when one considers "shall not the judge of all the earth do right".

The only conclusion I am able to come to is that something is missing that we are not able to comprehend.

HankD

Originally posted by HankD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />. but if God opens a persons heart are you saying they still would reject the message. I do not believe scripture supports that.

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"Would" reject or "could" reject?

In either case and to be honest, I don't know for sure, but my inclination is to say NO!. I guess I am inclined toward irresistable grace in spite of "choose you this day whom ye shall serve".

But on the other hand, an eternity of pain and suffering for an individual seems severe as a retribution for not being able to produce something (saving faith) that is impossible for that individual to produce because God would not provide it (saving faith).
This SEEMS to be a contradiction when one considers "shall not the judge of all the earth do right".

The only conclusion I am able to come to is that something is missing that we are not able to comprehend.

HankD </font>[/QUOTE]I somewhat agree with your analogy, yet if one looks at it as we are not on probation to see if we will believe or not, but are born a condemned unit of people already on their way to eternal punishment, like being born a viper and by nature a life long snake. Yet Gods Grace is for who He has elected to be saved. Hard to understand but trusting in His Word.