Doctrine

Jim,

You cannot be critical of something you believe. You either believe it or you don't.

Now it might be theoretically accurate to say that some men believe some thing in the Bible and don't believe other things in the Bible. But that reduces the Bible to no more authority than the evening news paper.

But if a man says categorically "I believe in the Bible" and then procedes to tell you all the problems he has with the Bible, he is being intellectually dishonest.

Mark Osgatharp

 

And so there is no controversy around the various translations. I have even heard some of them called "heresy", "not the word" etc.

Please stop feeding the garbage. One can believe something and still be critical. We do it all the time in society.

If I say the Children of Israel cross the Reed Sea and not the Red Sea, am I too an heretic? Most scholars agree that it must be the Reed Sea and an error is made in our copies of scripture..Then there is the "whale" of Jonah...Where do we draw the line?

You are too fast to condemn others. Have you checked your own salvation lately. Perhaps there is some doubt there and the only way to assure yourself is to condemn others.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Can a person be saved and be in a cult? I have also heard that someone was saved, and stayed in the Catholic church. There has to be some way of defining who is saved and who isn't, or do we just turn our heads the other way when we see such things. Pray silently for those who are decieved, or tell them they are believing a lie? Are we to be so silent that we allow the lost to slip into eternity because we chose to not offend, and to rather say nothing about salvation because they made a claim of it? Oh, that's being legalistic, isn't it?

 

We were never commissioned to determine who is saved and who is not. We were commissioned to preach the gospel. It is God prerogative to determine who is and who is not saved.

If a person says they are saved, and we have been a faithful witness to truth, that is all we can do. We can't save anyone, not even ourselves. That is God's business. We can believe,,that is what God asks of us.

Cheers,

Jim

 

It is important to have some idea of who is saved since that knowledge is required in keeping various commandments.

 

BTW Jim, you are my favorite "liberal".

 

Jim,

You are in error. If you criticize something that means you have doubts about it. Doubt is the opposite of faith.

"And he that doubteth is damned if he eath, because he eateth not in faith; for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not: and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea, driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think he shall reeive any thing of the Lord."

I do not believe that every instance of doubt spells eternal damnation, though every instance does spell judgment of some sort. But when a man stands in doubt of the very basis of faith - the Scriptures themselves - it is fair to say he is not a child of God at all.

Mark Osgatharp

 

But I didn't even vote liberal. I voted NDP (socialist).

Cheers,

Jim

 

And, of course, Peter lost his salvation when he denied Jesus Christ, not once, but three times at the very crucifixion. Impetuous, bullheaded Peter. And he debated with Paul and broke fellowship for a season. Poor bloke. He must be all washed up for sure.

And Doubting Thomas...poor chap..He didn't even get a slap on the wrist, but Jesus set out to show him the wounds. Doubting is not wrong; it is evidence of thinking. God never condemned thinking. We all ought to do more of it, as much as it hurts.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Jim,

If you are going to discuss the issues at least deal honestly with what I said, which was:

There is no evidence that Peter doubted who Jesus was or the veracity of the Scriptures. Rather, Peter's denial was the result of pride and self-confidence.

Neither does the Bible ever say that Peter debated with Paul. It does say that Paul rebuked Peter for not living by what he knew to be the truth.

As for Thomas, he got more than a slap on the wrist. He got a rebuke from Jesus for demanding evidence that He had risen from the dead.

You said,

So what do you do with the Scriptures I quoted which say that doubt is sin? Do you doubt them?

Mark Osgatharp

 

Mark, can a man be ignorant of what the Bible teaches about creation and still be saved? Are you saying that God doesn't take a person where they are at now, and saves them. There are loads of non-Christians and Christians who do not have reasons for creation and when they come up against the evolutionists they feel ike a fool. The evolutionists often read the creation account and teach the counter to that in the secular schools.

I have faith in the God of the Bible when I worship Him. But I never worship the Bible.

When a man comes to Christ he often knows little about the Bible and its contents. All He knows is he needs Christ. So often it is someone he knows who gives him the gospel, not the whole Bible and its intricacies.

When is the last time you preached Mt. 8:28-34, Mk 5:1-20 and Luke 8:26-39. I have heard so much nonsense preached over the years about those passages when preachers try to syntheisze those passages rather than interpret them correctly. There is a huge difference between what is stated in Mt compared to Mk and Lk. Just those passages alone gives a pretty goods jolt to a lot of people because they have always heard so much ignorance rather than the results of serious study by the one giving the message. So often the hard issues are ignored or skipped over.

 

Mark, you make me tired . In the words of the Gipper, "there you go again" - you post something provocative and when you get called on it, get all hurt and deny ever saying the thing. Quite frankly, I'm getting fed up with your 'debating' style, which seems to consist of making these provocative remarks combined with ad hominem personal attacks such as calling people damned who don't agree with your own particular interpretations of Scripture. I put up with this nonsense on the Inerrancy thread, but I'm afraid I've now had enough of it.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

The verse that is being referenced is Romans 10: 13 [For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.] Some are saying all you have to do is call on the Lord and you shall be saved.

But what about Romans 10: 8 [But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.] Here it shows that they have received the word and believe in the heart that Christ rose from the dead. Verse 13 above follows verse 8&9 showing that there is more than just calling on His name.

In Romans 10:10 [For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.] it furthers shows that action is required from the heart, mouth and then not to be ashamed. An outward showing of salvation is that we are not ashamed.

In Romans 10:14 [How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?]
it is necessary that they have heard the Gospel. Just calling on the Lord without hearing the Gospel cannot guarantee salvation.
Romans 10: 17 [So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.]

One thing that is important to remember is that the reason Paul said this is in Romans 10:3 [For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.] God expects us to submit to His righteousness. Being saved doesn't give us license to go outside of God's Word. That doesn't mean we are bound by OT law but we are bound to believe in God's Word because it was through hearing His Word that we got saved in the first place.

And if after all this you think you can believe in Romans 10:13 and believe in evolution, I say then you must believe in the entire book of Romans starting with Romans 1:16 [For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.]

But to all who hold God's truth in unrighteousness- Romans 1: 18 [For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.]

Then if you read the rest of the chapter you will see that God is the creator and all sorts of other things that will help you in your faith towards the Almighty God!!

 

Here is what I say, whether you like it or not:

Never once have I said that anyone who disagrees with my interpretation of the Scriptures on all issues isn't saved. I have, however, made it clear that there are certain issues that are salvific and believing in the Scriptures is one of the, for a man can't possibly believe in the Christ of the Scriptures without first believing in the Scriptures.

Uh, and what about the personal attacks on me? Obviously, you are just another hypocrite infidel who wants to act all loving and kind as long as you are attacking the word of God but then get all offended when someone calls your bluff.

Well, quite frankly, your opinion of me or my doctrine means nothing is this world to me. My only feeling about a man like you is one of pity.

Uh, so what am I supposed to do now. Apologize and admit that maybe the Bible was wrong after all?

Mark Osgatharp

 

This thread is hereby closed. Please see my warning on the sister thread:

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=003289;p=2#000025

Clint Kritzer
Moderator