What do you call a Christian...

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
If you can’t see that the Song of Solomon is erotic writing inspired and sanctioned by God, then you have bigger issues than we can address here.

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Somewhere in your analogy you have taken an incredible leap! Sanctioned? What "Songs" sanctions is true love expressed erotically. This you have stated correctly. Where do you leap to God's direction to, "Go ye therefore and write likewise?" Is Christian fiction (now there's an oxymoron if there ever was one! ) "sanctioned" by God? Give me a great big break

Originally posted by TheOliveBranch:
I would think that the Song of Solomon is all that needs to be said on the subject. Why give your own writings when all we need to read has already been given.

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So are you opposed to writing in general, both fiction and non-fiction, that is not somehow about news or science?

This world is filled enough with those things which are done in private and don't need to be spoken of.

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Would you be opposed to preaching or teaching regarding sexual ethics or books to aid the married couple’s efforts to pleasure each other?

The world has it's own problems.

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Yes. If we are to be salt and light, we must be active in the world as Christians.

I see the "Christian" writings as the bridge connecting the world and Christianity.

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The world and Christianity are connected. Christ came to save the world and believers are called to go into the world. You make it sound like a bad thing.

Too many people see this as ok because the Christian label is on it.

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Speaking for myself alone here, I did not get the impression that this erotic work was necessarily being published or was published specifically for the “Christian” marketplace. The scene I wrote was published in a mainstream book (with many Christian themes) and was not published by a “Christian publisher”, although everyone in the small publishing company was a believer.

I’ve been arguing for the mainstream, not some “Christian” market.

It has become nothing less than a Christian soap opera in literary form perverting the Christian mind.

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Maybe so. Sounds like you have some very specific stories in mind instead of the principles I have been discussing. You may be rightly arguing against trashy writing (and I’m likely to agree with your assessment), but there are certainly many quality examples of Christian writing that include erotic elements.

Originally posted by John Wells:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
If you can’t see that the Song of Solomon is erotic writing inspired and sanctioned by God, then you have bigger issues than we can address here.

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Somewhere in your analogy you have taken an incredible leap! Sanctioned? What "Songs" sanctions is true love expressed erotically. This you have stated correctly. </font>[/QUOTE]Excellent! You and I agree more than most posters on this thread.

Where do you leap to God's direction to, "Go ye therefore and write likewise?"

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We are created in the image of God as creative beings. To create, whether through building, social change, the arts, or other channels is an expression of what it means to be human.

Writing is communication, and Christians are called to communicate the fullness of the gospel to all the world. Since erotic writings are included in the fullness of God’s written message to us (the Bible), we should communicate those truths as well – both in art and practical matters.

Is Christian fiction (now there's an oxymoron if there ever was one! ) "sanctioned" by God?

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The parables that Jesus told were likely fictional stories about situations that occur everyday. The parables were not meant to deceive, but to reveal. In a very similar way, when Christians write fiction, the readers know that they are writing of specific situations that are not literally true, but they are often true in the sense that they could happen and they are an accurate reflection of human nature. Even in science fiction, human relations are expressed through fantastic locales and situations. The truth is there even though they are not literally true.

When a writer creates a fictional world, they have the power to create the world according to the way they believe. For a writer who is a Christian, this is a very powerful thing. Because of the suspension of the reader’s disbelief, the skillful Christian writer can present a Christian worldview (and even the gospel) to a willing reader through the imagery and stories told. Now, not every story should be a gospel tract, but the skillful Christian writer is able open closed minds and plant gospel truths in the lives of their readers. I could go on about this issue and all of its limitations and strengths for hours, but yes, I certainly believe that Christian fiction is sanctioned by God.

But that’s not the topic of this thread… Fortunately, you and I agree that erotic writing can be honorable and profitable since God Himself inspired and sanctioned it in the Song of Solomon.

Give me a great big break

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Sure. Take the rest of the afternoon off…

Just a side note here:

I get amused at how some people might find a steamy description in a story of two married people having a healthy sex life as somehow sinful.

I'll be the first to say it. My wife and I, when we were married, had a great, active, adventurous, healthy, and Godly sex life. And my children know it!

God forbid we recognize and discuss healthy sexual attitudes!!

I am not condemning ANY part of the Word of God!! I am condemning YOUR type of writing, because it does nothing that spiritually benefits anyone. Fiction is just fable or myth and Paul in I Timothy stated in verse 4 to AVOID fables because all it does is bring about questions and nothing edifying. I think all secular ficional writing is useless when it comes to helping Christians grow. If fiction is so beneficial then why would Paul want Timothy to avoid it? Song of Solomon is a beautiful picture of what love is suppose to be. It is not written to excuse or give license to useless erotic fiction. I promise I will not respond again to this thread, because it is pointless. I will take Pauls approach to this matter by using I Cor 6:12, it may be "lawful" but I don't see it as beneficial (expedient). As for condemning any part of the Word of God; I will let God know my heart, and you have your opinion.

Fiction is just fable or myth and Paul in I Timothy stated in verse 4 to AVOID fables because all it does is bring about questions and nothing edifying.

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So then, Jesus was wrong when he used parables?

Just because he got this idea from 7th Heaven doesn't mean it's not from God...God can and does use all sorts of things to show us what he wants.

Personally I think some Christian married couples could put good use into erotic stories, it helps to give hints and advice in the way of being intimate with your spouse. God created these feelings and as long as they are not taken advantage of then I would say to encourage him.

Karen

Sometimes it is amusing to see how some people take verses so far out of context to prove a point. Now, according to Illinoisboy it is wrong to read fiction. Some people, especially some IFB pastors, feel that if a person is not reading the bible, going to church or praying, they must be sinning.

Writing is communication, and Christians are called to communicate the fullness of the gospel to all the world. Since erotic writings are included in the fullness of God’s written message to us (the Bible), we should communicate those truths as well – both in art and practical matters.

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So it's okay if I start writing about torture, killing, cutting up bodies, etc.?

Just clarifying.

There are all different types af baptists here on the board and have different views. We will clash no matter how long you fight a battle.

In my own eyes to what I believe is true, I don't think christians should write, read, look at, or participate in pornograpic material. And writing a "Christian Novel with erotic dreams" well... it's a form of pornography.

Basically people..keep it in your own bedrooms for you to share with your mate.

If there is material in the bible you are questioning God put it there for a reason. He wants us to learn from all that is in the Bible. But dont look in the bible and think just because it is there it is ok for you to do it. That's why I said don't look in the bible for an excuse to sin...

This is where I stand....

I need to clairify a statement I made, that is wrong. All fiction is not wrong, some can be beneficial. My last statement will be, if you can do it (read or write this way) do it. I personally do not see the spiritual value it has for me.

Originally posted by Don:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Writing is communication, and Christians are called to communicate the fullness of the gospel to all the world. Since erotic writings are included in the fullness of God’s written message to us (the Bible), we should communicate those truths as well – both in art and practical matters.

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So it's okay if I start writing about torture, killing, cutting up bodies, etc.?

Just clarifying. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, if you present that evil as evil and show consequences for those kinds of actions.

In saying that all marital sexual relations must be kept hidden and silent, you are doing no more than influencing societies views that Christians, particularly Baptists see sex as a dirty, sinful thing.
Surely you want to express that it is a positive thing and a gift from God when expressed within the confines of marriage.
...
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Unless of course you really DO believe that the act itself is dirty and sinful.

I hope not.

-KFC

For those of you who believe God wrote every word of the Bible but don't believe that God allows explicit, sexual language as part of a story - what do you do with Ezekiel 23:19-21 ?

Joshua

You guys are all mixed up!! I will not, cannot, must not--share my thoughts concerning my wife and our sexual relationships from my pulpit--and for the author of that fiction book--isn't his pen and that paper and that publication his pulpit??

Why don't you guys yourselves go into intimate detail--right here--right now--of your sexual lives--I'm sure that most of the Liberals on the board will somehow overlook it--or goud over it!!

Blackbird

So it's okay if I start writing about torture, killing, cutting up bodies, etc.?

Just clarifying.
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Yes, if you present that evil as evil and show consequences for those kinds of actions.

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Except that the torture, killing, and cutting up bodies I'm referring to wasn't "evil," per se.

Read Judges 19.

Would you ever stand at your pulpit and give a sermon on the Song of Solomon?
Surely you would have no problem talking about the beauty of God Sanctioned intimacy as it is mentioned in the bible.
Just because you are not David or Paul or anyone else, no-one will tell you to stop giving your personal testimony.
Why then should you not be able to talk about sexual intimacy in the marriage bed?

I see a real double standard here which I believe stems from a subconcious belief that all things sexual = sinful.
You need to break through this and accept sex as a gift from God that should be celebrated, not hushed away like something dirty.
God gave us an example of a written celebration of Sexual Behaviour, why on earth would you now attempt to condemn it.

-KFC

Originally posted by blackbird:
You guys are all mixed up!! I will not, cannot, must not--share my thoughts concerning my wife and our sexual relationships from my pulpit--and for the author of that fiction book--isn't his pen and that paper and that publication his pulpit??

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Not the same thing. When you reveal detail of the marriage bed in public, you are also revealing things about your spouse. If your spouse hasn't given you permission, you are betraying their confidence. Furthermore, we are talking about fiction here, not non-fiction.

Why don't you guys yourselves go into intimate detail--right here--right now--of your sexual lives--I'm sure that most of the Liberals on the board will somehow overlook it--or goud over it!!

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1.) It is not an appropriate topic for the Baptist Board open forums. We had a thread a few days ago regarding "sodomites" that was started by a moderator that quickly upset the more gentle Baptist Board readers. It was deemed inappropriate and deleted.

2.) I do not have permission to discuss my sex life.

3.) We are not talking about our sex lives, we are talking about erotic fiction. Believe it or not, authors of fiction make things up. We do not have to experience them firsthand to write about them.

Originally posted by Don:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />So it's okay if I start writing about torture, killing, cutting up bodies, etc.?

Just clarifying.
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Yes, if you present that evil as evil and show consequences for those kinds of actions.

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Except that the torture, killing, and cutting up bodies I'm referring to wasn't "evil," per se.

Read Judges 19. </font>[/QUOTE]I caught the reference when you mentioned it the first time...

Just because the Bible doesn't take the time to condemn both the way the Levite treated his concubine (why did he have a concubine in the first place!) nor the abuse, rape and murder of the concubine by the mob, does not mean it is not evil.

In any case, the issue of whether or not you think the abuse, rape and murder of a woman is evil, I still assert that it is fine to present such a scene as long as you depict it as evil and there are consequences.

To any potential reader who happens by--I will do my best to discourage you from reading Christian fiction which contains graphic or even glancing scenes of sex--whether it be sex among husband and wife or sex between two potential lovers--I will discourage anyone from going on in that book.

Oh, sure! The Song of Soloman! No denying--its there! But folks, you have to remember--that book is God talking--its God breathed!! Infallabe! Inspired! Inerrant! A husband needs to read that book--a wife needs to study Song of Soloman!

But we need to leave fiction containing sexual exploration alone--

Authors--dare to be a Daniel!! Say to the world and to yourselves--"I can write that book without having to include that scene of sex or murder or whatever--and I will be honored by God Almighty by doing so!! I don't have to put what the world wants to read in there! I can sell just as many books or more without it as the world can with it!"

Blackbird