John 15.1

Is this a new doctrine you want to initiate? Try this on for a better understanding of the principle Jesus is relating.

Among the vines that one may find growing, Jesus is the True, fruit producing Vine, while others are false vines. The desired fruit only grows on the true vine. Other kinds of fruit grow on other kinds of vines.

To understand this statement about the true vine, one must understand some basics of vineyards. A grapevine produces grape producing vine branches, and "false" or non fruit producing vine branches, From the same root at the same time. The vintner (husbandman) prunes away the non producing branches of the grapevine in order for the vine to produce better fruit, by having the greater amount of nutrients and water. This "pruning" occurs during the growing season, another pruning occurs in the post harvest, or dormant season.

Most fruit producing vine type plants also produce non fruit producing branches, that "consume" water and nutrients, taking them away from the fruit producing branches.

Jesus is pointing out that he is the vine upon which the desired fruit grows, and that producing branchs are pruned to produce more fruit and that non producing branches are cutaway by the "husbandman" to prevent them from robbing the producing branches of nutrients.

This is not a matter of regeneration, it is a matter of production and non production. The Husbandman does this pruning during the growing season, so that the fruit produced during this current growing season for harvest is premium grade.

After the fruit is harvested, the plant begins to make itself 'dormant' for the non growing season. The food supply, "sugar" in the plant, goes back down into the root. It is when the plant goes dormant that most of the current year's vine growth is cut back to the root stock in preparation for the next growing season so that each year there are "new vinebranches" upon which the fruit grows.

[ June 02, 2003, 05:32 AM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

When I was in Bible College I thought that the Father created the world, the Son died for sinners, and the Holy Spirit was at work since the Cross. This is simplistic but I think the closer truth, in fact the only truth is, that each of the Persons of the Godhead were and are involved in all of these activities. Jesus said while on this earth, 'He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father.' Obviously, the Father and the Holy Spirit were not relegated to Heaven until He ascended back into Heaven.

All that matters is that we are fused into the True Vine who is Jesus Christ. He will take care of the pruning and we will bear fruit, especially if we abide in Him. Obviously, when we veer off course, He will take a hand in our discipline. [Hebrews 12]

I visited a winery once and I was amazed how many gallons of juice they can get out of a few fields of vines. My prayer is that He will use each of us to produce more fruit, for His glory.

Under the former covenant God had a vineyard but it produced 'wild grapes,' [Isaiah 5:1-7] Once again the 'better covenant of grace' [Hebrews 8:6] allows us, aided by the Spirit, to produce beautiful and tasty clusters of grapes. Why because we are engrafted into the Vine Who is Jesus. We are the branches and at times He will prune us, not to punish, but to produce, in and through us, a better harvest.

 

Ray,

Would you please explain this part of your latest response:

This sounds like modalism to me. Please tell me what you mean.

Blessings,

Archangel

 

Archangel,

I was simply saying that the Persons of the Godhead cannot be divided up in saying that the Father created the world, the Son died on the Cross and the Holy Spirit is our Comforter. The Triune Godhead was involved in creating the world and universe . . . . I believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity.

 

Archangel,

Modalism is the belief that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit manifests Himself in different modes during the history of humankind. The Father, Son and Spirit are not three different manifestations of the one God. Modalism views one God who variously manifests Himself in three modes of existence: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

There are three Persons in the Godhead and yet they remain One. This is the greatness and mystery of the holy Trinity.

 

Let's look at the whole counsel of God's word in regard to this agricultural analogy of a vine and branches:

 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, an olive-tree of the fields, were put in among them, and were given a part with them in the root by which the olive-tree is made fertile, 18 Do not be uplifted in pride over the branches: because it is not you who are the support of the root, but it is by the root that you are supported. 19 You will say, Branches were broken off so that I might be put in. 20 Truly, because they had no faith they were broken off, and you have your place by reason of your faith. Do not be lifted up in pride, but have fear; 21 For, if God did not have mercy on the natural branches, he will not have mercy on you. 22 See then that God is good but his rules are fixed: to those who were put away he was hard, but to you he has been good, on the condition that you keep in his mercy; if not, you will be cut off as they were.

Now, look at the part of this passage that I have placed in bold. We all agree that it is God who saves. We all agree that he is the gardener who does the ingrafting. We can't cut ourselves in or out of the vine, He must do that. But notice the condition that must be met and kept for us to be ingrafted and to remain in the vine.

Its the condition of FAITH. Notice this passage doesn't say they didn't believe because they were grafted in the vine. It says they were cut off because of their lack of faith. And it also doesn't say that the Gentiles have faith because they had be ingrafted, but it says they were ingrafted BECAUSE of their faith. Therefore the premise of this thread fails.

 

Yes, I believe "the husbandman" performs all the work, but that doesn't strengthen your false premise that fails to see that the branches must meet certain conditions before God will do that work.

I agree. I don't think faith is a work in the way the Bible speaks of "the works of the law," which is not ever equated with "works of faith" in the scripture.

 

My faith is not founded upon the Grace of God, but on the Word of God, the promises of God, the commands of God. The WORK of GOD! Nevertheless, It is MY FAITH, and not someone else's faith that saves me.