Election vs. Free Will

God always accomplishes His will. If God purposes to do something, He will perform it 100% guaranteed.

"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes."

Here we see an example of someone not doing the will of God.

"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:"

Does this mean that Christians do not commit fornication?

 

Calvinism is one of the worse false doctrines taught by any church. It is utterly unbelievable how this cancer has spread within the Baptist church.

 

What's truly sad, Terry, is those people that teach that God cannot accomplish His will. I believe if it is the will of God for every person to be saved, then every person will be saved. Period. And I believe if Jesus suffered the penalty for every person's sins, then every person is free from the penalty of their sins. Period.

 

John 3:16, according to Calvinism:

"For God so loved the elect that he gave his only begotten Son, that the elect would believe and have everlasting life."

 

Ken H,
I respectfully think that you are totally wrong on this issue. If I thought that everything that happenes: plane crashes, tortue, etc is God's will I would consider this type of God to be the most evil presence in the universe. Fortunately, I believe that God wants everyone to be saved.

(edited for spelling)

 

"For God so loved the elect that he gave his only begotten Son, that the elect would believe and have everlasting life."

I have no problem with that.

If I thought that everything that happenes: plane crashes, tortue, etc is God's will I would consider this type of God to be the most evil presence in the universe.

Did God order the murder of women, children, and animals in the OT?
Can God not prevent Plane crashes , torture, etc? If he can't His power is limited. If he can what kind of God do you have then? What is the difference is causing a crash and allowing it to happen if both can be prevented? If you saw your child running into the street in front of an oncoming car and did nothing, what kind of Father would you be?
God permits,prevents,and promotes. All are in the parameters of his Will.

 

The problem with your view, Terry, is that evidently you don't believe God can accomplish this either because 1)He can't or because 2)He won't.

Do you believe that God lacks the power and ability to accomplish His will to save everyone or do you believe that God has the power to save everyone but refuses to use it to do so? Which is it?

But you might believe in free will instead of free choice. Then you are faced with the quandary that either God must use His power to bring about a change in man's will or choice in order to save him(so that everyone is saved based on Christ's atonement for everyone's sins) or God creates people that He knows will not be saved but He does so anyway and would rather have them be eternally tormented(according to the traditional view of hell) than to use His power to bring about a change in their will or choice in order to save them(thus His will is not for everyone to be saved).

Quite a quandary you are in there, Terry, quite a quandary.

 

Hi, Ken H! Haven't seen you for awhile!

God's Will is in control of all.

There is God's Perfect Will.

And there is God's Permissive Will.

His Perfect Will is for all to be Saved. He made the plan for it to happen.

In His Permissive Will, He allows man to choose and suffer the consequences of rejecting Him.

Seems simple enough to me.

 

Lorelei – I agree with you. Just thought I would do the word study for those who disagree with the meaning of the word “World” as used in John 3:16. It will not change their views of the word though.

John 3:16

In this verse the world must be understood in the sense of "the world of men" (see John 1:10).
(from the UBS Handbook Series. Copyright (c) 1961-1997, by United Bible Societies)


John 3:16

The world ton (NT:3588) kosmon (NT:2889). The whole cosmos of men, including Gentiles, the whole human race. This universal aspect of God's love appears also in 2 Cor 5:19; Rom 5:8.
(from Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1997 by Biblesoft & Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament. Copyright (c) 1985 by Broadman Press)


5. the inhabitants of the world:
theatron egeneetheemen too kosmoo kai angelois kai anthroopois, 1 Cor 4:9 (Winer Grammar (1883), 127 (121));
particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. 10:1)): Matt 13:38; 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10,29 (36 Lachmann in brackets); John 3:16 f; 6:33,51; 8:26; 12:47; 13:1; 14:31; 16:28; 17:6,21,23; Rom 3:6,19; 1 Cor 1:27 f (compare Winer Grammar (1883), 189 (178)); 4:13; 5:10; 14:10; 2 Cor 5:19; James 2:5 (compare Winer Grammar (1883), as above); 1 John 2:2 (compare Winer Grammar (1883), 577 (536));
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 2000 by Biblesoft)

Randall

 

Just curious, which "type" of Baptist are you?
Southern Baptist? Independent Fundamental? Other?

 

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, WHO DESIRES ALL MEN [not just the elect] TO BE SAVED AND COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH."
--1 Timothy 2:3,4

"Truly these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now COMMANDS ALL MEN EVERYWHERE [not only the elect] TO REPENT, because He has appointed a day on which he will JUDGE THE WORLD [not just the elect] in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained."
--Acts 17:30,31

"For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living GOD, WHO IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MEN, especially of those who believe."
--1 Timothy 4:10

Of course, I can come up with many more like these; plus several verses where God PLEADS for sinners to repent (esp.through his prophets); where He weeps for those unwilling to come to him (esp, Matt 23:37); and where he takes NO PLEASURE in the death of the wicked (but that they should turn and live--Ezek 18:23,32)...But the hour is late, and I've got to get my beauty sleep for church tomorrow.

The point is that Scripture teaches both God's purpose for the ELECT and His genuine DESIRE for EVERYONE (elect and non-elect alike) to repent and be saved. It teaches both God's Sovereignty AND Man's Responsibility. We should hang on to BOTH truths and not cling to a man made theology that emphasizes one to the neglect of the other.

 

Remember that according to the order of God's acts, His foreknowledge is the effect of His foreordination.

Romans 3:10-12 (NIV)
10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”

John 1:12-13 (ESV)
12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God. 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Ultimately it is not a man’s will that produces salvation but God’s will. Prior to God’s will coming into play, we were:

Titus 3:3-5 (NIV)
3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Romans 9:11-13 (NIV)
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Romans 9:22-23 (ESV)22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-

For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. (1 Th 1:4-5 NIV)

Man's will participates in response to God's promptings as Paul makes clear when he says the Thessalonians received the Word. Two or more unsaved people may hear the same message of the gospel, but the power of the Holy Spirit comes upon only whom God chooses based on His knowledge of the true condition of that person's heart, and they are convicted.

Did you ever hear a powerful convicting sermon and say to yourself, "How could anybody hear that and not respond to God's call?" But the truth of the matter is, a number of unsaved people probably walked out the doors of your church that very day, unsaved and untouched by the message, because:

The god of this age (Satan) has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Cor 4:4 NIV)

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. (John 6:37 NIV) "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44 NIV)

The combination of v. 37a and v. 44 indicate that the divine drawing activity which Jesus referred to cannot be reduced to what theologians call "prevenient grace," i.e., that somehow the power to come to Christ is allegedly dispensed to all of mankind, thus enabling everyone to accept or reject the gospel according to their own will alone. Scripture indicates that no "free will" exists in man's nature, for man is enslaved to sin (total depravity) and unable to believe apart from God's empowerment (Rom. 3:1-19; Eph. 2:1-3; 2 Cor. 4:4; 2 Tim. 1:9).

It is God who saved us and chose us to live a holy life. He did this not because we deserved it, but because that was his plan long before the world began--to show his love and kindness to us through Christ Jesus. (2 Tim 1:9 NLT)

Ephesians 2:1-10 (ESV)
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Titus 3:4-7 (NLT)
4 But then God our Savior showed us his kindness and love. 5 He saved us, not because of the good things we did, but because of his mercy. He washed away our sins and gave us a new life through the Holy Spirit. 6 He generously poured out the Spirit upon us because of what Jesus Christ our Savior did. 7 He declared us not guilty because of his great kindness. And now we know that we will inherit eternal life.

John 6:44 (ESV)
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Romans 8:27-30 (ESV)
27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

Here comes the part, like the trinity, that our finite minds unravel on.

29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

This is a very compelling statement. “The Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.” It is not what some theologians teach, that a person can choose God, and thus command the Holy Spirit to intercede! But rather, God invokes the Holy Spirit to intercede on those He foreknew! Does scripture support this? Let’s see:

Ephesians 1:4-14 (NIV)
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. 11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Romans 9:14-22 (NIV)
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

Acts 13:48 (NIV)
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed (Which implies: “all who were not appointed for eternal life did not believe, i.e. their hearts were hardened).

Psalm 139:15-16 (NIV)
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

The above is "in context scripture" that should lead readers with open minds to the same conclusion it led me to.
1. God foreknew me before the creation of the world. He knew whether my heart would be right, whether I would choose Him if given the chance, whether I would welcome being transformed. He also knew those who would not and did not give them "eyes to see and ears to hear."
2. All my days were ordained for me and written in "the book of deeds."
3. Is God unjust? Not at all. 100% of mankind deserves eternal separation from God. That God chooses to save some is mercy and grace!

In Christ,
John

[ February 02, 2003, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: wellsjs ]

 

the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. Paul is obviously not teaching universalism, that all men will be saved in the spiritual and eternal sense, since the rest of Scripture clearly teaches that God will not save everyone. Most will reject Him and spend eternity in hell (Matt. 25:41,46; Rev. 20:11–15). Yet, the Gr. word translated “especially” must mean that all men enjoy God’s salvation in some way like those who believe enjoy His salvation. The simple explanation is that God is the Savior of all men, only in a temporal sense, while of believers in an eternal sense. Paul’s point is that while God graciously delivers believers from sin’s condemnation and penalty because He was their substitute (2 Cor. 5:21), all men experience some earthly benefits from the goodness of God. Those benefits are: 1) common grace—a term that describes God’s goodness shown to all mankind universally (Ps. 145:9) in restraining sin (Rom. 2:15) and judgment (Rom. 2:3–6), maintaining order in society through government (Rom. 13:1–5), enabling man to appreciate beauty and goodness (Ps. 50:2), and showering him with temporal blessings (Matt. 5:45; Acts 14:15–17; 17:25); 2) compassion—the broken-hearted love of pity God shows to undeserving, unregenerate sinners (Ex. 34:6,7; Ps. 86:5; Dan. 9:9; Matt. 23:37; Luke 19:41–44; cf. Is. 16:11–13; Jer. 48:35–37); 3) admonition to repent—God constantly warns sinners of their fate, demonstrating the heart of a compassionate Creator who has no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezek. 18:30–32; 33:11); 4) the gospel invitation—salvation in Christ is indiscriminately offered to all (Matt. 11:28,29; 22:2–14; John 6:35–40; Rev. 22:17; cf. John 5:39,40). God is, by nature, a saving God. That is, He finds no pleasure in the death of sinners. His saving character is revealed even in how He deals with those who will never believe, but only in those 4 temporal ways. -- John MacArthur

 

Interesting, I thought I read that verse to state that Jesus is the Savior of all men. I wonder how it came to mean that Jesus is the provider of salvation to all men but the Savior of only a handful? I guess "all" doesn't always mean "all" - even to a non-Calvinist.

I also wonder why the Holy Spirit had it stated that Jesus is the Savior of all men and then adds "especially of those who believe"? Isn't that rather redundant if only believers in this age are saved?

[ February 02, 2003, 12:13 AM: Message edited by: Ken H ]

 

Ken,

Actually you'll find the word "all" to be a very unreliable word to take literally in the Bible! Here's just one of many, many examples:

Mark 1:5 (NIV)
5 The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

If we apply the same reasoning that some want to apply to 1 Tim 4:10, John the Baptist was a busy dude! All one million or so inhabitants of Jerusalem were baptized by John? Universalists live and breath on this word "all" in the Bible.

In 1 Tim 4:10, all means "every tribe and nation," or "Jew and Gentile, rich and poor, male and female, slave and free," but not everyone within those groups inclusive.

Another way of understanding 1 Tim 4:10 is that Christ's payment of mankind's sin debt was sufficient for "all," but would only be offered to those whom the Father gives Him.

 

I do not see a quandary. God desires all men to be saved, but many will refuse His offer of grace. Why is this such a difficult concept to understand?

Rev G,
I have been members of both Southern Baptist and Indpenedent Baptist churches. Only once was I a member of a Calvinist church (It was not a baptist church). As soon as I figured out that they were hyper-calvinist I left.

 

I guess I am reading the verse differently. The verse says that God is not willing for anyone to perish. I don't see the verse saying that it is God's desire, or wish, or dream, that no one will perish.

If it said it was merely a wish of God, then I could see how you could defend your viewpoint. But when it comes to God's will that is more than a mere wish, especially since God is omnipotent. It would appear that your viewpoint at least implies that God is not omnipotent in the area of the salvation of His creatures.

 

It is the desire of God that all men be saved. It is the desire of God that all men's hearts be right for that to happen. But all men's hearts are not right. Initially, everyone is "filthy rags." Initially “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” Romans 3:10-12 (NIV)

But with God's omniscient search of a man's heart, He can foreknow, even before the creation of the world, if that heart is changable, if it will yield to the Holy Spirit, and beg to be transformed into the image of Christ.

Election therefore, which is clearly and repeated mentioned in the Bible, is not about God doing an "eni, meni, mini, mo" in selecting His Elect, but election is God's foreknowledge of who will and who will not yield to the Holy Spirit, based on the condition of their heart.

[ February 03, 2003, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: John Wells ]

 

Wellsjs,
You've made some very good points. I really don't think we disagree on many of them. When I quoted 1 Timothy 4:10, I certainly didn't do so with the intent of espousing universalism. Of course that verse isn't teaching that all WILL be saved. He IS the Savior of ALL men in that His atonement is AVAILABLE to ALL. He is ESPECIALLY the Savior of "THOSE WHO BELIEVE", since the Atonement is only APPLICABLE to those who RECEIVE HIM. Christ as the Passover Lamb that "takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29) is truly the "propitiation for the WHOLE WORLD" (1 John 2:2). However, just as the blood of the Passover lamb had to be APPLIED to the door posts in Exodus in order for the Angel of death to "pass over" the children of Israel, so those the blood of Christ has to be APPLIED to the life of the individual through faith. For even the Calvinist wouldn't say that Christ dying for a person AUTOMATICALLY saves him--the person still has to repent and believe to be saved. We have to RECEIVE HIM (John 1:12,13) to be born again and be called "Children of God" since it is His LIFE that saves us (Romans 5:10). Now, surely the Elect are the only ones who will receive Him and be saved, but the Atonement is available to all as God has "laid on Him the iniquity of us all" (Is 53:6). God "DESIRES all men to be saved" (1 Tim 2:3,4) but knows that not all men WILL be saved (Matt 7:13,14). He truly commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30) since all men will be judged (Acts 17:31). but acknowledges that not everyone does so (Romans 2:4,5). Therefore everyone is held ACCOUNTABLE for whether or not they repent and believe.

BTW, your statements regarding foreknowledge and election are also very well put. Peace.

 

DT,

Thank you for your kind response and clarification on both our points. I am reminded of a comment by a very good friend of Charles Spurgeon, who happened to disagree with his views on election. He said, "For a man who believes so strongly in predestination and election, he sure preaches with the urgency of an Arminianist!" Only God knows the heart of man. Since we do not, we are to share the gospel with everyone who does not know Jesus Christ as their Savior with fervor, hope, and belief that they will place their faith in Him!