Election vs. Free Will

Amen, Brother!
Very well said

 

Ken H,
You quoted, "God is not willing for anyone to perish." If I understand your position, which I obviously do not, you would be saying that all people will be saved, since this is God's will.

Also, in another forum you said the crash of the space shuttle Columbia was an accident. I do not see how you can even believe in accidents. Do you think that this tragedy was God's will?

 

Election is God's sovereign choice to salvation. The sinner is chosen to be saved but is not yet saved. The elect person remains an ungodly sinner until the Father draws him to the Son thru regeneration. The choice was made by God before the creation of the world.

Eph. 1:4 For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight in love.

The actual salvation occurs within the life time of a person. Hope this makes sense ;0) Pam

 

The basis of God's election is a mystery only known to God. We may not understand how it can be that He is able to elect some while passing by others. But rest assured everything God has decided to do is perfect and righteous because He makes no mistakes. Some say that this paints a picture of a God that is unjust. But this view overlooks the fact that if all humanity received what is just from God, then all would be condemned to eternal death in hell. God is underno obligation to save anyone. He shows mercy by choosing to save some condemned to death.

Hope this makes sense, :0)

Pam

 

Who were you responding to, CompassionFlower (Pam)? Anyone in particular?

I must say that I pretty much agree with what you said except for one change:
"The elect person remains an ungodly sinner until the Father draws him to the Son THRU regeneration." Change "thru" to "to" and we agree. "Drawing" and "Regenerated", though connected, are not the same. (On the other hand, I think I can see your point. We do not actually come ALL THE WAY "to the Son" except THROUGH regeneration--is that what you meant? In that case "regeneration" could be considered the end result of the "drawing" process for those who come.)

Regarding Ephesians 1:4, it is important for us to remember: "He chose us IN HIM before the creation of the world." God's choosing us was not an arbitrary decree apart from us being "IN HIM." We were elected "according to the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God the Father" (1 Peter 1:2), not inspite of it. Romans 8:29 teaches that "For whom He FOREKNEW, He also PREDESTINED to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Amen!)

As John Wells in an earlier post suggested, the mind can become "unraveled" when contemplating such a verse (and related verses for that matter). What really blows my mind is that from MAN'S perspective in TIME, it is God's FOREKNOWLEDGE; from God's perspective in ETERNITY, it is simply(!) His OMNISCIENCE.
WOW!

At any rate, your post certainly makes sense to me!

 

There are accidents according to our human perspective. There is no such thing as an accident in God's perspective. So, yes, the space shuttle tragedy is within the will of God. If it wasn't, then there are things taking place that God either cannot, or will not, control. And either of those ideas would mean that God is not omnipotent either by inability or choice.

 

Again, I agree with your post--as far as it goes. God certainly would be just if He condemned us ALL to Hell, and it is indeed only by His mercy that ANY are saved.

As far as the "basis" of God's election is concerned, we know at least that His election is: (1) In accordance with HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE (1 Peter 1:2, as I alluded to previously); and that it (2) involves "US IN HIM" (Eph 1:4, as you cited earlier).

However, God does DESIRE for ALL to be saved (1 Tim 2:4) and has provided the means that this COULD be done (1 John 2:2), but it is obviously not in His Sovereign WILL for ALL to actually BE SAVED. God surely takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (but that they should turn and live) (Ezek 18:23,32), and He "endures with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" (Rom 9:22). At the same time WE are RESPONSIBLE to respond to God's invitation (John 3:16-18; also compare Acts 17:30-31 with Luke 13:3 and Acts 3:19).
Peace.

 

I see. You believe in a limited atonement of Jesus.

 

I see. You believe in a limited atonement of Jesus. </font>[/QUOTE]Ken, it depends in what way you say the atonement is "limited". If by "limited" you were referring to the EXTENT (or scope) of the Atonement then, no, I believe in an "unlimited" or general atonement of Christ, as it is SUFFICIENT for the whole world. If you meant for "limited" to refer to the INTENT of atonement then I'd say, yes, as the Atonement is only EFFECIENT for those who believe (ie the Elect).
Hope that helps.

 

I think I'm done posting for the evening. I plan on spending some "QT" with my lovely wife. However, I just wanted to express thanks for the generally collegial tone of this thread. It's great to be able discuss this topic and explain my position without being ridiculed or belittled, unlike another thread/forum I could name.

See ya' back tomorrow!

 

Thanks, that does help. Everyone won't admit it but most Christians do believe and teach some form of limitation on the atonement of Jesus - either in its intent or in its power and effectiveness.

 

Who were you responding to, CompassionFlower (Pam)? Anyone in particular?

I must say that I pretty much agree with what you said except for one change:
"The elect person remains an ungodly sinner until the Father draws him to the Son THRU regeneration." Change "thru" to "to" and we agree. "Drawing" and "Regenerated", though connected, are not the same. (On the other hand, I think I can see your point. We do not actually come ALL THE WAY "to the Son" except THROUGH regeneration--is that what you meant? In that case "regeneration" could be considered the end result of the "drawing" process for those who come.)

Regarding Ephesians 1:4, it is important for us to remember: "He chose us IN HIM before the creation of the world." God's choosing us was not an arbitrary decree apart from us being "IN HIM." We were elected "according to the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God the Father" (1 Peter 1:2), not inspite of it. Romans 8:29 teaches that "For whom He FOREKNEW, He also PREDESTINED to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Amen!)

As John Wells in an earlier post suggested, the mind can become "unraveled" when contemplating such a verse (and related verses for that matter). What really blows my mind is that from MAN'S perspective in TIME, it is God's FOREKNOWLEDGE; from God's perspective in ETERNITY, it is simply(!) His OMNISCIENCE.
WOW!

At any rate, your post certainly makes sense to me! </font>[/QUOTE]Dear Doubting Thomas:

I was answering the first person who asked the question? Where do you stand?

Now the Father drawing the sinner was what would take place first and the regeneration would be the end result when the sinner accepts the Son, Jesus Christ.

It is also going to take me awhile to get use to this format of answering people. This is the first time I have been on a board like this, so please be patient with me. ;0(

Pam

 

My stand is that the Bible teaches BOTH Divine Election and Human Responsibilty. I substitute the phrase "human responsibility" for "free will" because of all the confusion about the meaning of the word, "free".

Sounds good--we agree.

No problem, I'm just now learning how to work all these quote thingys!

 

Doubting Thomas I was going with ya - all the way until you said INTENT - Im just hoping I misunderstood ya

Guess this means the dance again
God wills all to be saved

This does not mean all will be saved

Not because God could not save everyone He could
Not because God does not want to save everyone He does

In my beliefs God set up man with a will and mind of their own - man fell - man still retains that will and mind - and while biased towards evil - is still capable of doing good deeds; just not unto salvation.

It is intended for all - sufficient for all - given to all - accepted by few

 

Why do we pose the disjunction - Election vs. Freewill?

Would anyone entertain the logical possibility of "Election AND Freewill"?

God has chosen before the foundation of the world and whosoever will may take of the water of life freely.

Rufus IMHO

 

If you misunderstood me, I apologize. When I said "INTENT", I meant in terms of whom God sovereignly INTENDS to save. There is no question that God WANTS or DESIRES for all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3,4). 1 John 2:2 makes it clear that Christ is the propitiation for the WHOLE WORLD which, of course, includes the Non-elect. He just doesn't INTEND to ACTUALLY save anyone who will not repent and believe. In that way the Atonement is limited--it is not meant to be EFFICACIOUS for those who don't actually receive Christ.

Can't say that we disagree about that.

By "it" are you referring to SALVATION? The ATONEMENT? Something else?

Again, I think people may get tripped up on the word "intended"--does it refer to God's desires for his creation (?MORAL will?) or His SOVEREIGN will?

"Sufficient for all"...Absolutely, for Christ bore the "iniquity of us ALL" (Isaiah 53:6)

"Given to all"? Well CHRIST gave Himself FOR ALL (1 Timothy 2:6), since He tasted death for EVERYONE (Heb 2:9). However, SALVATION is NOT given TO ALL. ("Given" in the sense of a completed transaction)

"Accepted by few"...Sadly, yes.

 

Rufus, I basically agree with you. I would just substitute "Human Responsibility" for "FREE Will". People may argue back and forth about the existence of "FREE will", and they tend to talk past each other as they have two (or more) different ideas about what that exactly means. I think very few people would disagree that Humans are RESPONSIBLE for their actions/thought.

 

CompassionFlower,
You keep quoting Eph. 1:4, "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love"
Eph 1:4(NAS).

As you can see, Eph. 1:4 does not have anything to do with being "elected" to be in Christ. It has to do with God deciding that those in Christ will be made holy and blameless.

 

Charles H. Spurgeon did!

"If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring. -- Charles H. Spurgeon

In his work, "A Defence of Calvinism," Spurgeon states unequivocally: "[T]here is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

How the Holy Spirit entwines with the mind of man to bring a person to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior is on the order of the somewhat describable but equally mysterious trinity.

 

Very good point.

Although we can to an extent DEFINE the Trinity (Three Persons in One Being), we cannot truly FATHOM it. While we express belief in the Hypostatic Union of the Incarnation (One Person with two natures--divine and human), we cannot fully grasp how such a Union can be.

In terms of the relationship of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility, we know that from Scripture both are true. We also can get some glimpses from Scripture about how the two may interact at certain "points". However, as you so aptly put it, none of us can completely explain how the Holy Spirit interacts with the human volition to bring about salvation in the life of the sinner.

"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." John 3:8

Peace.