Election vs. Free Will

Amen...Amen...Not quite...

Right, not everyone ACCEPTS that faith...

True, only the elect receive salvation through faith...Yep, faith is a free gift OFFERED to the elect who do in fact receive it when moved by the Holy Spirit...

Mercy is bestowed on the REPENTANT unregenerate sinner (Isaiah 55:7)...No, but there is such thing as a REPENTANT sinner RECEIVING God...

Amen...

No one has resisted God's SOVEREIGN will, but many have resisted His DESIRE for all men to be saved(1 Timothy 2:4)(Acts 7:51).

Can't argue with that!

 

Up until recently, I have always been involved in IFB churches here in Houston, Texas. None of the churches I have know or were involved with ever preached Calvinism. In fact, all the IFB pastors I have sat under would sound a strong warning against calvinism.

You might want to do a little history search on this. You will find it was taught in SBC and IBC.

 

In answer to your first question - That's right.

The first Theology Book taught at the first Southern Baptist Seminary was written by a Calvinist by the name of J.L. Dagg.

Your last question is phrased incorrectly - it should read - When did the Devil get in and change Historic Baptist theology to Arminianism?

 

Hardsheller,
You keep refering to the Southern Baptist Convention. Who cares what they say; they do not have any authority. They are just a bunch of churches that have formed a convention. You also mention calvinism as though that has always been the baptist position. I don't believe you, prove it.

The IFB church I was saved at along with the bible college I attended (Tennessee Temple University) does not, nor has ever taught, calvinism. Also, the hundreds of ministries I have been acquainted with do not teach calvinism.

Here at this board it seems to be almost assumed that the traditional baptist position has always been calvinism. Again, prove it.

 

You might want to read the London Baptist Confessions. The first one is 1646 (I think) and the second one 1689 (I think). Those are early Baptist confessions, and they are strongly calvinistic. Historically Baptists the majority of Baptists have been calvinistic. It is only in the last century, really, that this has changed.

 

It has been except for the piooneer days of 1609-1641 when Baptists were classical Arminians. Calvinist Baptists built Baptist work in England and America. Read the 1644 London, 1655 Midland, 1656 Somerset, 1689 London, Bunyan's Catechism, 1742 Philadelpia, 1833 New Hampshire, 1858 Abstract of Principles.

The watered down Karl Barth version of Arminianism that most Baptists hold today has no historical connection to the Baptist faith.

 

Russe and Kiffin,
Thank you for your responses. Perhaps there has been a tradition of calvinism in the baptist church 400 years ago, I do not know. When I say calvinism, I mean the doctrine that some people are born for hell and some for heaven and there is nothing they can do about it. This, if this is true calvinism is something I cannot accept, regardless of what any church says.

 

Tennessee Temple can teach what it wants to since it is a private institution. However if they ignored the presence of presence and influence of Calvinism in Baptist History they did not teach the whole truth of Baptist History.

By the Way - My Southern Baptist Seminary did the same thing.

Calvinism has always been a part of Baptist History. Sometimes more Baptists leaned that way than at other times.

IFB Churches in America are latecomers when it comes to the History of Baptists. IFB Churches have formed mainly because of the creeping liberalism in the Arminian leaning Baptist churches of many Baptist denominations, Southern Baptist included.

Get yourself some good Baptist History Books and study for yourself. I don't want to prove anything to you - I just like to see Baptists thinking for themselves and studying for themselves like they have always historically done.

 

1689 Confession:

http://www.westborobaptist.ca/1689.html#Chapter%2010

 

Questions for Hyper-Calvinists: 1. We are told to choose. (Jos.24:15) If what we do has already been decreed, how could it be our choice? 2. Jesus wept over Jerusalem. (Luke19:41) Why would Christ weep over what the Father decreed? 3. God does not want anyone to perish.(2Pet3:9) If He does not want them to perish why does He not give them faith to be saved? 4.A story: A man has a room full of gravely ill children. He says,"I love all of them" Then he takes the medicine that will make them well and gives to some and does not give to others. Is something wrong with that picture? John 3:16 says God loves the world and Jesus also says "whosoever" believes..." 5.Didn't Jesus love the world too, as did His Father and if He did why would He just die for certain ones in the world? 6. When Peter preached to that vast crowd at Pentecost he said,"Repent and be baptized EVERYONE of you..." (Acts2:38) Would Peter have said this to them if he believed that some of them may not be given faith to be saved?

 

It is interesting you would say that as the traditional teaching on the subject of hell since the Dark Ages, which I would guess you adhere to, does exactly what you state to the nth degree. Perhaps while you are bashing Calvinism around, you should study what your view of hell says about the character of Almighty God.

 

Ken,
You pick and choose what to respond to. Answer me two questions, please. Do you believe that God created some people who are destined by God to go to Hell even before they are born? Also, do you believe that some people are destined by God to go to Heaven even before they are born?

BTW, I do not have to worry about a God being an evil tyrant. This view of God is not taught in the bible, it is a perversion brought on by Calvinism.

 

How can a God who gives noone less than they deserve be an evil tyrant?

 

NKJV,

You're right. God is not an evil tyrant. Man is the evil tyrant.

But you're wrong about the perversion being brought on by Calvinism. The perversion is brought on by those who attempt to define Calvinism from the outside without understanding it at all.

You say, "The God of Calvinism is not fair." He condemns a certain portion of the human race to hell without giving them a chance to respond to the gospel.

I say, "The God of the anti-Calvinist is not fair." He folds his hands in heaven and depends on men to carry out his work on earth. If you don't feel like witnessing then men don't have a chance to get saved.

If you choose to disobey God today and decide to stay at home and surf the internet rather than sharing the gospel with everybody you see or at least one person you see then those people might get killed before they hear the gospel and not have a chance to be saved. What's more fair about that?

Don't know about you but would much rather that my eternal destiny rested in the hands of God rather than in the hands of men.

 

The God of the Bible is a benevolent and righteous King. I think the problem many (including myself) have with certain Calvinist doctrines is NOT that God doesn't have the right to leave us deservedly in our sin. He certainly would be JUST to do so. My problem is that the Bible portrays a God who, out of LOVE (not "obligation"), DESIRES all men to be saved and not just the elect. He appears to offer genuine invitations to ALL and commands ALL to repent. Since this is the way the Bible describes God, I have a problem with any doctrinal system which implies that He really does NOT want all men to be saved while giving the impression through His revealed Word that He does. IF that's the case, then that "god" would be disingenious and insincere. Whether or not Calvinists agree with that assessment or not, that's the impression non-Calvinists have towards Calvinism. "Well, you just don't understand Calvinism," is the common rejoinder. However, the more I interact with supporters of Calvinism through their statements and writings, I can't say that any of them have "clarified" how a seemingly arbitrary monergistically imposed faith is consistent with a God who has revealed His desire for ALL to repent and ALL to be saved.

 

I think that the majority of Believers problems exist within the context of, would God Judge anyone to be permanantly seperated from him with that knowledge before their very creation.

Would it make any sense to you if you were to change your beliefs that God would not seperated himself spiritually from anyone as a minimum standard and also he could choose a special group of believers to represent him before all others in the ages to come?

 

Doubting T,

The most notorious of those places in Scripture where God seems to have revealed his desire for All to repent and all to be saved is 2 Peter 3:9.

God's desire as expressed in 2 Peter 3:9 is closely identified or synonymous with his Will. God's Will as expressed in the Bible encompasses several aspects.

First of all there is God's Sovereign Will. It is by his Sovereign Will that He created the Universe. He spoke the earth and the Heavens into existence. They could not have refused His command.

Secondly there is God's Preceptive Will. It is His will that we live according to His precepts.
"Thou shalt not kill" is a precept. If we kill we face the consequences.

Thirdly there is God's Dispositional Will. This describes what is pleasing to God. ie, He does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked.

Now when you take 2 Peter 3:9 and apply the Biblical aspects of God's will we quickly see that Peter is referring to God's dispositional will.

It's not his Sovereign Will that Peter is talking about - if so everyone would be saved and universalism would be true.

It's not his Preceptive Will that Peter is talking about or No one could go to Hell because of their sin.

Ah Ha! It must be His Dispositional Will. He does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked.

And notice this part of that verse. "but is longsuffering to us-ward," To whom is Peter writing. To Christians - To the Elect.

But I'm sure you have heard this before....

 

Hardsheller,
Thanks for the response, and, yeah, I have heard that before .
Though we could "split-hairs" about who Peter was actually writing to here (and who the "any" of 2 Peter 3:9 is), I had more in mind God's command for ALL men EVERYWHERE to repent in Acts 17:30 and His desire for ALL men to be saved (in 1 Tim 2:4). I also don't think that we can restrict the "wicked" whom God wants to "turn and live" in Ezek 18:23-32 to only the "ELECT wicked".
Peace.

 

2 peter is speaking of children in the sanctification process..the day of the lord is judgement day for them. the day their faith is tried...

the lord comes spiritually to Judge their Faith.

knowledge of God comes in two parts..
wisdom and understanding..wisdom..he speaks
but understanding...you live through this part.
and this judgement involves dying to self...
or dying to the flesh...

you successfully pass....Jesus is lord. He has risen in your comprehension.the old man has died been placed in jesus at death and you have been resurrected spiritually.

You Fail....well God has no pleasure that any should perish..but the parameters of Gods family are if Jesus is not chosen as lord..one doesnt dye to their flesh...they become children of wrath..
they adjust their understanding and wisdom by manipulating rules in their life and combined with their religious beliefs..they attempt to serve God.
thats mixing carnal law with Grace....

so earmarks of Children of disobedience is..
Jesus is not lord..they live by carnal laws and expect others to also..

heres an extra for yall...

they see Gods word carnally and not spiritually
God is coming to judge with punishment and torments...nope..if he ever judges anyone ever..
he forgives them..he loves them...

children of disobedience sees God as a judge.

so your 2 Peter verses dont make sense .

God comes to judge his people who have dyed to the flesh in the process of sanctification..

you say that gods people are doing something to earn salvation...truth is they are dying to bad habits..their really not doing what they were doing previously...so their not doing anything.

how about the earth shall melt with fervant heat..oohhh..how about when Jesus Says the lust of the world will be destroyed..they will, to you.

all crutches (idols) that your flesh will use to fight against Gods will...will be destroyed..one day.they will become useless to you..essentially becoming useless..as if they were destroyed.

like I stated..some see the bible carnally.
some see it spiritually...

 

This topic has gone on long enough here and should have been in the correct forum. It has become circumlocutional and it will now be closed. You may continue to have it out under calvinism/arminianism.

Thanks you,

Jim,

Moderator