Jesus was a Calvinist?

According to your viewpoint, how can God be just to punish His Son for the sins of all people and then punish these same people a second time for the same sins? Under what standard of justice do you believe God can do such a thing as this? We do not do such a thing under our own justice system. Are you saying that the our justice system is on a higher plane than God's justice? Perish the thought, Yelsew, perish the thought!</font>[/QUOTE]God established that the Death of his only begotten son is sufficient to atone (pay the penalty) for the sins of the world.

For those who believe in Jesus the Son of God, atonement is sufficient. For those who do not believe in Jesus also don't believe in His atonement for their sins. That which you don't believe in is of no value to you. Therefore since the unbeliever is self-condemned (John 3:18) God carries out his Justice by throwing them into the lake of fire (the second death) Double Jeopardy? Banish the thought! It is only double jeopardy when you face two convictions for the same crime. The self-condemned face only one conviction for not believing, and the penalty for not believing is the second death (Rev 20 11-15)

God also established that personal CONFESSION of sin is the vehicle by which He forgives the individual sinner. This option is available only to the believer, because only the believer believes that confession is necessary for forgiveness as stated in (1 John 1:9,10). The one who claims to be a believer in Jesus but who is not convicted by the Holy Spirit to confess sins is highly suspect regardless of whether one is correctly informed on the issue of Atonement and Forgiveness.

Do you really think that God punished Jesus? Get real. Jesus willingly suffered death to pay the price for the sins of the world that God so loved. From the foundation of the world, it was Jesus who would be the Lamb of God slain. Punishment? One does not rise from being punished to be seated at the right hand of the Throne of God. Jesus conquered Death in the only way that death could be conquered, and that is by experiencing it then rising again victorious over it. Jesus is the Worthy Lamb of God.

 

1) Let me get this accurate - you believe when God does accomplishes something of infinite value and worth that unless man nods his head in agreement, then what God accomplishes has no value or worth. Perish the thought, Yelsew, perish the thought.

2)No, Yelsew, it's about time that you get real.

Isaiah 53:4-12(NASB)
4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.

2 Corinthians 5:21(NASB)
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

 

That is not what I said! Man's belief does not signify man's approval or agreement. God does not need nor seek man's approval for that which God makes. But, if man does not believe in God or in what God has done for man, that man sees no value in God or anything God has done for him. Who loses? NOT GOD!

 

Ken,
I don't think you grasp the gravity of John 19:30 It is Finished!. Jesus was not punished, He was the Lamb of God, slain from the foundation of the world to be the completion of God's work. He suffered death as the only way God would defeat death, then God restored Jesus to his rightful place at God's right hand, the place of honor that only the worthy can occupy, Punishment may seem like what it was, but it truly was the final battle between good and evil in the spiritual realm. Jesus arose victorious over death, that which all mankind must face once before the judgment. Then, at the Judgment, those who believe in God and His Son and have the mark of the holy Spirit are spared from the Lake of fire which is the second death, or eternal separation from God, the source of life.

 

If you don't think what Jesus underwent beginning with the Garden of Gethsemane, before the Sanhedrin, at the hands of the Romans, and on the cross wasn't suffering, then you have a very weird definition of suffering.

I guess you just ignore Isaiah chapter 53, then.

 

Your forgetting a key principle: What ever is true of all saints is true of the apostles, but what is true of the apostles may or may not be true of all saints.

Do you assume that because it says Christ gives the apostles the gifts of signs and wonders that he gives all of us those same gifts?

Just because it says the apostles were given eternal life doesn't mean that his referant is everyone who recieves eternal life. All who believe receive eternal life, but not all who receive eternal life were given to be apostles.

Let me make it simple: General Hanks has assigned Major Jones to train 12 Sargents to be drill instructors for incoming Privates.

General Hanks says to Major Jones, "I have given you power over all of these military personal so that you might train all that I have given you."

Will everyone receive training? Yes. Will they all receive it directly from Major Jones? No, some of them will receive it from the Sargents that he trains.

But was the General refering to the privates when he says, "all that I have given you?" No. He is talking about the 12 Sargents that have specifically been given to him for his unique assignment.

So too, Christ didn't come in flesh to teach everyone personally the knowledge of Himself and the Father, (which this passages shows is what leads to eternal life.) He was given a specific task as you can see in verse 4: "I have glorified You on the earth by completing the work You gave Me to do." Notice that it says that Christ has "completed the work" that God "gave" him to do, which goes right along with making himself and his father known to the 12 men that God had given him to reveal this knowledge to.

This is very clear if you read the entire chapter as a whole. Just a few verses down he specifically uses the same phrase "those that you gave me" as a direct reference to the apostles.

Read someone besides Calvinistic authors a I'm sure you will see both of these viable interpretations in numerous commentaries. I've already listed one earlier, I'm not going to do your research for you.

Translation: Your translation disagrees with mine so I have deemed it inadequate without any foundation. It is not clear to me because its not the way I have always read it so I'm going to dismiss it without giving any solid arguments for doing so.

 

Nowhere is the Bible speaking of a future possibility of the church and the individuals who will make up the church speaking in such a way that this flock may not be gathered, to assume such is to declare the Word of God null and void.

Jesus said, ch. 10 of John, others who are not of this flock...how does this reconcile with the idea that he was also speaking in the presence of those apostles who with the prophets alone enjoy election, it does not, if Jesus is speaking of others who are not of this flock, he must have in view those of the future who also are God's who also are given to Christ, who Christ then gives the gift of salvation (John 17).

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

The first flock are Israelites who have not been hardened and have been given to learn from Christ directly.

The second flock are those who believe through their message. (namely the Gentiles)

 

In John 10.16 Jesus said specifically the following:

If he does not bring these he negates his word and disobeys the Father who has given these to him as he says at John 17.

No-thing will prevent his bringing all whom he has bought.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

If he does not bring these he negates his word and disobeys the Father who has given these to him as he says at John 17.

No-thing will prevent his bringing all whom he has bought.
</font>[/QUOTE]Your assuming that to bring something in must mean to force it. I can bring my children in the house by calling them, they still must respond.

Romans 11 also says the Gentiles are grafted in by God. It also says they can be cut off, but Calvinists don't like that part.

The question is not whether God does the ingrafting or the bringing in of the Gentiles, we all agree that He is the one who has put together the plan. The real issue is what are the means by which he grafts individual gentiles in or what are the means by which he brings individual gentiles into his fold?

The Bible says they come through faith.

 

Bill,

This will be your last warning. Your next violation of board rules will result in a 10 day suspension during which time you can decide whether or not you wish to participate here.

Moderator.

[ April 14, 2003, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

If you don't think what Jesus underwent beginning with the Garden of Gethsemane, before the Sanhedrin, at the hands of the Romans, and on the cross wasn't suffering, then you have a very weird definition of suffering.

I guess you just ignore Isaiah chapter 53, then. </font>[/QUOTE]GOD did not punish Jesus! Punishment implies reward for sin. Jesus did not sin. Man punished the physical body of the Christ, not God. Isaiah prophesied what God told him would happen and that God the father would provide the Lamb who would be so brutalized.

Man deliberately slaughtered the Lamb of God, because man perceived, based on trumped up charges, that Jesus blasphemed, a "sin" worthy of death. Jesus did not resist, He did not plead for his life, He willingly gave up his life to fullfill the work of the Father who sent Him for that purpose, which is to be the atonement for the sins of the world, the whole of mankind.

 

You assume that God gave these only to the apostles, yet fail to produce a single scripture that says so. Worse, you then extrapolate from your false assumption that people are saved differently than the apostles, too. So you have a soteriology based entirely on your imagination.

 

According to your viewpoint, how can God be just to punish His Son for the sins of all people and then punish these same people a second time for the same sins? Under what standard of justice do you believe God can do such a thing as this? We do not do such a thing under our own justice system. Are you saying that the our justice system is on a higher plane than God's justice? Perish the thought, Yelsew, perish the thought! </font>[/QUOTE]This is the post, the words used by Ken are "...how can God be just to punish his Son for the sins of all people... to which I responded that God did not punish his Son.

Did Jesus suffer lethal brutality? Absolutely! No question about it. Not from the hand of God, by by the hands of man. Evenso, it was predestined from the foundation of the world that it would happen in accordance with God's word, and that it would be for the atonement of the sins of all mankind.

 

GOD did so punish Jesus! And here's the Scripture to prove it.

2 Corinthians 5:21(NASB)
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

God made Him to be sin. Got it now, Yelsew?

 

To atone for our sins, Jesus was made to be sin on our behalf even though He had never sinned. If God had not made Him to be sin on our behalf, He would not have died for our sins.

 

You assume that God gave these only to the apostles, yet fail to produce a single scripture that says so. Worse, you then extrapolate from your false assumption that people are saved differently than the apostles, too. So you have a soteriology based entirely on your imagination. </font>[/QUOTE]I know many Calvinist who believe the signs and wonders of the apostles were unique to them. MacArthur, Spoul, Piper etc etc And I'm pretty sure many on this board hold to that view as well.

What do you think about ol' Benny Hinn?

 

I believe they respond because they are your children

Bro.Dallas

 

Actually, death is the wages of Sin. Christ was not suffered to see corruption, though he died in the flesh, he did it to condemn sin; He was raised in the power of the holiness of the Spirit of God.

Jesus did suffer for all the sin.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

I believe they respond because they are your children </font>[/QUOTE]You didn't know my children, sometimes they didn't respond.

Sometimes I longed to gather them under my wings like a chicken gathers up her chicks but they were unwilling.

Oh, no wait that is what God said about his chosen people. Never mind.