OT Law

Is there ever a time that the OT Law can be referred to as a guideline without being accused of falling out from under grace?

Some things are very specific in the NT, as for guidelines for right living as a christian, but others are not. The things that are not, but are in the OT, can show us answers to some questions. But if we use them as reference to a guideline, many will say that it is OT and we are no longer under the Law. If we cannot use OT Law as a guide, then why do we have the OT? For history purposes? Any other reasons?

We are not living under the 'ceremonial' laws of the OT; but the 'moral' laws of the OT will never pass away, i.e. The Ten Commandments etc.

One of the best 'guide' books is in the OT, IMO - Proverbs.

I have to disagree, Sue. The Ten Commandments have been superceded by the greater Law of Christ. Sure there are many principles in the O.T. that point to this greater Law, but the New Testament is our covenant, not the Old. The Old has now vanished away.

As far as the purpose of the O.T. goes, it is many-faceted. Among those purposes, a record of God's faithfulness to His people despite their unfaithfulness to the Old covenant, types and shadows of the spiritual truths yet to be revealed in the N.T., historical records, lessons by example in the lives of countless historical figures, just to name a few. But laws for us to keep?--not the ultimate purpose the O.T.

A believer in the better covenant,

Tim

Tim,

What did Paul mean, then, in Romans 3:28&31?

Therefore, we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

And in Rom 3:20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Do we as saved christians need to acknowledge the law to know we are sinners (for we need to know what is wrong in order to know it is sin), and then are able to confess guilt?

Originally posted by TheOliveBranch:
Is there ever a time that the OT Law can be referred to as a guideline without being accused of falling out from under grace?

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That is directly related to the manner in which it is presented. I believe that the OT is a fantastic guide for living. If someone wants to live their life according to the Law, then that is a personal decision. Too many times I have seen people take pieces of the Law and apply it to others, stating that they are not living a Godly life. That is sin, pure and simple.

The LAW shows us guilt and breaking God's standards. It still has a great place in our preaching and teaching.

Without the LAW there can be no GOSPEL. People must see themselves as sinners before the LAW and repent. Then they can believe.

So a distinction MUST be made concerning "what law" in the OT we are looking at.

Ceremonial Law? No. We don't offer bulls and goats or worship in temple or synagogue.

Civil Law? No. We don't live in an Israeli Theocracy, careful to tithe to the government/priests (although the IRS comes close).

Moral Law? Yes. There are timeless truths and absolutes and verities that apply to all men of all ages. Jesus reiterated 9 of the 10 commandments as such Moral Law.

Problem comes when self-appoint pharisees try to tell you which of the ceremonial or civil laws you ALSO should follow. Deut 22:5 is kicked around as a basis for women not wearing slacks. Absurd of course, but they don't preach Deut 22:1-4, or 22:6-28.

You can't "pick and choose". Universal moral laws are obvious and clear. We might not like 'em, but they are there for us . . to see outselves as "outlaws".

THAT is the purpose of "Law".

The Old has now vanished away.

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Not true. Jesus said:

Matthew 5

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
1 Psa 40:8, Matt 3:15, John 4:34, John 8:29, Heb 10:7, Heb 10:9

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the 1law, till all be fulfilled.
1 Isaiah 2:3, Isaiah 42:4, Isaiah 42:21, Micah 4:2, Romans 3:31, Heb 8:10

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least 1commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach 2them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
1 Rom 7:7, 1st John 3:4
2 Matt 7:12

20 For I say unto you, That except your 1righteousness shall exceed the arighteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
1 Matt 7:23, Matt 13:41


Bottom line: Jesus came to fulfill the Law, not to eliminate it.

A believer in the better covenant,

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Fulfilling the Law brought it to its completion. Christ obeyed the Law, now our righteousness is in Him. In His death, He abolished the Law (Eph.2:15), cancelled it (Col. 2:14).

The Old Covenant vanished away according to Hebrews 8. It was replaced by the New Covenant in his blood (Mat. 26:28).

Paul said the law was established by the just penalty of death exacted upon Jesus in His substitutionary death for us (Rom. 3:23-28). He did not say we are still under it's demands. In fact he said that if one decides to keep the Law, He must keep ALL of it (he didn't divide it up into moral, civil, and ceremonial like most theologians do).

Better covenant? See Hebrews 8:7 and 2 Cor. 3:6-11.

In Christ,

Tim

Law is distinguished as different parts in Romans 7.

Originally posted by TheOliveBranch:
Law is distinguished as different parts in Romans 7.

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Unless it's hidden in the Greek, I don't see that there. Can you be more specific?

How does splitting up the O.T. Law fit with Gal. 5:3? It seems that Paul is saying there that there is an inherent link between the ceremonial and moral law (and civil law) of the O.T. To be obliged to one "part" is to be obliged to all.

In Christ,

Tim

I challenge anyone who believe we are under ANY of the O.T. law to support that with Scripture.

Sheeagle, your post is answered with Romans 10:4. Christ is the END of the law for righteousness to ALL WHO BELIEVE.

It is amazing who covenant theology professing dispensationalists really are. You must be consistent.

Paul teaches throughout Romans that trying to live under the law only brings death.

Gunther, free because I live under Christ's covenant, not Moses'.

Good Gunther I'm glad you recognize that "heaven and earth" have passed away.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the 1law, till all be fulfilled.

Heaven and Earth will not pass away until AFTER the law has been fulfilled. Refresh my memory, has anyone every fulfilled the law?

What Christ did not say was that he would fulfill it and that it would still be in effect. That is based on pathetic hermenuetics and bad, guilt-trip laden theology brings.

Are there any other passages, because my position is loaded.

Here ya go, Gunther:

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Originally posted by Don:
Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

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Good, an answer. Note that Christ did not introduce a no moral restraint policy. He introduce the N.C. that would write God's law upon the hear AND give the person the ability to obey.

Now, when asked what the greatest commandment was, Christ said it was to love God with all of your being and your neighbor as yourself. Later in his ministry, he said to love as he loved.

Okay, what you quoted did nothing to my view. We do not obey those laws because they are in the 10 commandments. We obey them because the are repeated and reaffirmed in the N.C. Note that we would say we don't obey the Sabbath because Christ fulfilled it for us. Yet you and the rest would like to put us under the bondage of the O.C. again. Why?

Paul told Timothy that the law was for the wicked. 'Nuff said.

Christ fulfilled the Law. Heb 8:13 says the OC was passing(1st century) so therefore "heaven and earth" have passed away.

Good, an answer. Note that Christ did not introduce a no moral restraint policy. He introduce the N.C. that would write God's law upon the hear AND give the person the ability to obey.

Now, when asked what the greatest commandment was, Christ said it was to love God with all of your being and your neighbor as yourself. Later in his ministry, he said to love as he loved.

Okay, what you quoted did nothing to my view. We do not obey those laws because they are in the 10 commandments. We obey them because the are repeated and reaffirmed in the N.C. Note that we would say we don't obey the Sabbath because Christ fulfilled it for us. Yet you and the rest would like to put us under the bondage of the O.C. again. Why?

Paul told Timothy that the law was for the wicked. 'Nuff said.

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Whoa, there, pardner. Being a tad judgmental, now aren't we? Before ya rope all of us into a herd, don't you think you ought to flesh us out a little more?

I don't believe anyone here has posited that we follow the ten commandments because they have anything to do with our salvation. I believe most of the people you've apparently labeled "legalist" are actually espousing following the ten commandments because we know those are the things that God wants us to follow.

The time when we needed to follow the ten commandments in order to get saved was fulfilled by the coming, death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. We no longer need the commandments for salvation. But we do need them for moral guidance, and to know what's pleasing in God's eyes. The fact that we often fail, and He loves us anyway, is grace in its finest form. And we know that even though we fail, He loves us, and so we continue to strive to walk in the path that He's laid out for us, following the guidelines that He's given to us.

So it bugs me, if not anyone else, when I start hearing people say, "Don't pay attention to the Old Testament. That was for someone else, and it serves no purpose now except to give us a historical record of what happened before Christ came."

That help y'all out?

Originally posted by Don:
So it bugs me, if not anyone else, when I start hearing people say, "Don't pay attention to the Old Testament. That was for someone else, and it serves no purpose now except to give us a historical record of what happened before Christ came."

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Thanks, Don. Bugs me too.

Don, just so you know, I have taught from the O.T. when I do Sunday School.

The 10 Commandments NEVER had anything to do with salvation. It has always been this way: Now to him who works not, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, to him it is counted for righteousness. Works NEVER had a thing to do with salvation. The Law only condemned.

Now, our use of the O.T. is the same as what Christ said: love God with all of your being and love your neighbor as yourself. According to Christ, all the law and prophets hung on this, indicating that it is superior to the rest.

Originally posted by Don:
The time when we needed to follow the ten commandments in order to get saved was fulfilled by the coming, death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. We no longer need the commandments for salvation. But we do need them for moral guidance, and to know what's pleasing in God's eyes. The fact that we often fail, and He loves us anyway, is grace in its finest form. And we know that even though we fail, He loves us, and so we continue to strive to walk in the path that He's laid out for us, following the guidelines that He's given to us.
So it bugs me, if not anyone else, when I start hearing people say, "Don't pay attention to the Old Testament. That was for someone else, and it serves no purpose now except to give us a historical record of what happened before Christ came."

That help y'all out?

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This has given way to another point:
If you are saying that we need the Law for "moral guidance," then we must follow ALL of the Law, not merely pick a choose those facets to which we will adhere. That means that we are not to eat pork or shellfish (that includes shrimp). Additionally, cheeseburgers and meatloaf are anathema. We cannot wear blended fabrics. Moreover, what is the length of the "fringes upon the four quarters of thy vesture?" What about that battlement on your roof?

If you do not believe that we have to follow ALL of the Law, then what are the "absolute requirements" that we must incoporate into our lives, and who is the authority that has established these parameters?