Do you believe, once saved always saved

Originally posted by BrianT:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Willow 2:
Brain T.....What do you believe in?

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Actually, I'm not sure. But I lean strongly towards the belief that people can be saved and then fall away. Yes, no one can pluck me out of his hand, but I can still jump out if I choose to reject him and/or stop believing.
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Yes Brain i believe people can fall away, but i myself believe they only have a mind set salvation to begain with to do this. I feel if you are really commited this should not happen.

And if a person chooses to walk away...they done that all by him or her self...that was not by the lords doing.
Cause his word tells me, He will never leave nor forsake me, & this i believe in.

Myself i believe in OSAS....Cause i believe in what the bible tells me....

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That's fine. My question is simply: if OSAS is true, does someone need to believe in OSAS to be saved? The post prior to my first post seemed to imply this, that if you are not OSAS you have a "different gospel" and are "accursed". I thought salvation was based on God's grace through our faith, not God's grace through getting all our doctrinal ducks in a row. </font>[/QUOTE]No i am not say i believe you have to believe in osas to be saved, but i feel this is something that i have learned from the lords holy word.
And yes salvation is by the lords grace & love threw our faith in him. But we have to have faith & trust in him.

Matthew this is in responce to your post also
Read John 3:16
For god so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

To me this speaks very loud.

My Answer is YES!YES!YES! Thank the Lord I am saved today, tommorow and always.

Originally posted by Willow 2:
Yes Brain i believe people can fall away, but i myself believe they only have a mind set salvation to begain with to do this. I feel if you are really commited this should not happen.

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"Commitments" change.

No i am not say i believe you have to believe in osas to be saved

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Good. Me neither. But it looks like the person I originally responded to does.

Read John 3:16
For god so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

To me this speaks very loud.

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It speaks loud to me too. But is it talking about about a "one time" belief, or an "ongoing" belief? If someone needs to "believe" to be saved, what if someone stops believing?

Originally posted by BrianT:

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"Commitments" change.
Yes i know very well how people change from one day to the nexted, but i my opinion i donot believe they had a true commitment to be able to walk away from the lord.

No i am not say i believe you have to believe in osas to be saved

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Good. Me neither. But it looks like the person I originally responded to does.

Read John 3:16
For god so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

To me this speaks very loud.

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It speaks loud to me too. But is it talking about about a "one time" belief, or an "ongoing" belief? If someone needs to "believe" to be saved, what if someone stops believing? [/QB][/QUOTE]


For the one time belief, again if you walk away i don't see how it was real?
To me it has to be a true commitment & if thats so....then it will not be lost.
You have to believe that Jesus suffered & died & rose from the grave for your sin's to be able to be saved....there is no other way.

Do you believe this?

Originally posted by Willow 2:
Yes i know very well how people change from one day to the nexted, but i my opinion i donot believe they had a true commitment to be able to walk away from the lord.

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Why not? Many people when they get married have a *true commitment* to stay with each other. Many marriages end in divorce, despite starting with a true commitment.

For the one time belief, again if you walk away i don't see how it was real?

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Why not? People change real beliefs all the time, about other things.

Applying this principle, "If you were really unsaved to begin with, you would have remained unsaved." Yet no one ever says this - why not? It's the same principle.

You have to believe that Jesus suffered & died & rose from the grave for your sin's to be able to be saved....there is no other way.

Do you believe this?

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Yes I do. At one time in the past, I had a *real belief* to the contrary. My belief changed. Was my previous belief not real, simply because it changed?

I think part of the problem here is are messed up view of salvation. I don't believe salvation is making a decision, but believing. I can't simply decide not to follow Christ, I need to stop believing in Him. For those of you who lost your salvation, what did Jesus do in order that you didn't believe he would save you anymore.

You see, I agree with those who say salvation is being saved FROM sin. Salvation is not only fire insurance but it is being delivered from sin and being made more like Christ. This is a process that begins at regeneration and continues til I die, when God will perfect me. Why God doesn't do it immedietly when I first believed, I don't know and no one does. But somehow he gets more glory by perfecting us (ie, having us trust him more and more over time) then by jettisy us straight to heaven the moment we believe. It is a good thing he works this way, otherwise the converse would be true and he would jettison us straight to hell the first time we sinned.

So it is a true statement, if today you do not trust in Jesus Christ, you are not saved. At that angle it doesn't matter what desicion you made in the past or if you said you believed or not, or even if you believed or not. Being saved IS trusting in Jesus.

But . . . here is where I believe in perservance of the saints. I believe that those who trust in Jesus Christ will continue to Trust in Jesus Christ, not because of any magic or strong will or wishful thinking but simply because God himself will sustain you in your faith in Him. God gave you that faith to begin with, and He will continue you in that faith.

But that faith is real, and real faith results in action. So the warning of the Bible are true, watch yourself and others to see if you really do trust Jesus. These warnings themselves stir us to action to make our election and calling for sure.

So for those who use the language "No one can pluck me out, but I can walk away", I must ask, how do you view salvation. Did you walk up to Him? Do you continue in good works? What keeps you saved? I do nothing but simply believe that His sacrifice covers my sins. To "walk away" would be to admit that I no longer believe that He will do this. But nothing done byJesus, or God the Father, or friends or family or anything else has ever threatened my belief that Jesus can and will save me on the day of judgement.

I believe in OSAS (a bad misrepresentation) not because I believe I can ask Jesus into my heart and then do whatever I want but because God the Father made me belive in Him and He will continue to make me believe in Him. If salvation were up to me to continue trusting in Jesus on my own, I would have lost my salvation a long time ago.

Originally posted by Pete Richert:
I believe that those who trust in Jesus Christ will continue to Trust in Jesus Christ, not because of any magic or strong will or wishful thinking but simply because God himself will sustain you in your faith in Him. God gave you that faith to begin with, and He will continue you in that faith.

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We have no choice in the matter? Why do *so many* scriptures warn against falling away, if it's impossible to fall away?

So for those who use the language "No one can pluck me out, but I can walk away", I must ask, how do you view salvation. Did you walk up to Him? Do you continue in good works? What keeps you saved? I do nothing but simply believe that His sacrifice covers my sins. To "walk away" would be to admit that I no longer believe that He will do this.

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God's grace keeps my saved, through my faith (and even though my works *in addition* to my faith (not instead of faith) James 2). I'm not talking about working to maintain your salvation. Stopping believing, choosing to reject Christ, is what I'm talking about.

But nothing done byJesus, or God the Father, or friends or family or anything else has ever threatened my belief that Jesus can and will save me on the day of judgement.

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That's great!

Originally posted by BrianT:

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Why not? Many people when they get married have a *true commitment* to stay with each other. Many marriages end in divorce, despite starting with a true commitment.
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To me again...it was not a true commitment

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Why not? People change real beliefs all the time, about other things.
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You have to have a real heart felt commitment

Applying this principle, "If you were really unsaved to begin with, you would have remained unsaved." Yet no one ever says this - why not? It's the same principle.
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</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The bible sayes we are given a choices " Right" If we are given a choices then this tells me we have to make a choices between the lord or the devil, So we have to be unsaved to get saved.

Do you believe this?

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Yes I do. At one time in the past, I had a *real belief* to the contrary. My belief changed. Was my previous belief not real, simply because it changed? [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]_________________________________________________

Not meaning anything personal about you, cause i don't know you, But i can't see how it was real to start with.[/I]
I believe more so with people its something that catches the eye for just a brief time.....you know its different & its new....then the new wares off, then there on to something else new for a while.

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We have no choice in the matter? Why do *so many* scriptures warn against falling away, if it's impossible to fall away?

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I agree with you that there is no simple answer to this. The Bible seems to be full of views held in tension. Jesus is fully God and fully Man. We all gave up trying to reconcile that one about 1700 years ago and it doesn't bother us anymore. We are told that we are holy, then we are commanded to be holy. We are told that the Spirit decides who gets what gifts, then we are told to seek the greater gifts. We were saved, are being saved, and will be saved, etc. I am a Calvinist because I accept the simple statements in the Bible on God's choosing. I am NOT a Calvinist though because I don't explain away the other passages that say God wants all to be saved or exhorts us to repent and believe. Somehow these must both be true, even if it fails human logic. I refer you back to Jesus being Fully God and Fully man.

So yes, I believe and take the warnings seriously. If I don't continue to believe in Jesus, I will not be saved, now or in the future. Anyone who does not have saving faith in Christ RIGHT NOW is not saved. This saving faith is demonstrated (made public) in obedience because if I believe what Jesus says is best I will do it. Even so, ultimate righteusness in forensic, or else, none of us would be saved. Everyone continues to sin.

It is not from these passages that I know I will continue to trust in Jesus. It is from others where I learned where this saving faith comes from (ie God) and where it will come from in the future. I could no more continue to be saved on my own then I could save myself in the first place. And it comes from passages where the Bible clearly teaches those God predestined he . . . etc. So I combine the data. Like I said, I take those warnings seriously. Everytime I live in blatent disobedience, I always come beg looking for God's mercy, "making my calling and election sure". But if God did not sustain me I would not come back.

Now I don't want to get mixed up in semantics, but I think this point is important. I NEVER CHOOSE CHRIST. I didn't choose to start being really obediant or accept Him or even ask Him in my heart. I TRUSTED that He did indeed die, rise again, and sits at the right hand of God the father, and that by this trust in Him all my sins are forgiven (past, present, future) and that on judgement day I WILL BE (future tense) saved ultimatly from taking the punishment of my own sins. Which leads me to my next point.

Stopping believing, choosing to reject Christ, is what I'm talking abou

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So, what made you stop believing that Jesus would save you. Did you

1)not believe he existed
2) not believed he rose from the dead
3) not believe that his sacrifice is large enough for you sins
4) believe that after being forgiven you must not sin to stay forgiven
5) not believe that He will do as he promised (ie, justify you on the last day)
etc. I don't want to here about you rejecting Him because to reject Him you must by definition stop trusting him. So why did you stop trusting Him? Or hypothetically, I don't know if you have ever claimed to lose your salvation, but in what situations would you stop trusting Him?

If we are talking about the Believer's spiritual birth relationship with God (using 1Jn2:1 as a starting point but not exclusively), that relationship cannot be broken. Because with birth comes DNA, spiritual DNA to be sure, but DNA nonetheless. Once I was born again, I could (can) no more stop being a child of God, than I can stop being the child of my physical father.


Now, as to my being in fellowship with my Heavenly Father, welll, that must needs be a matter of constant attention on my part.

[ June 19, 2003, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Squire Robertsson ]

Matthew this is in responce to your post also
Read John 3:16
For god so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

To me this speaks very loud.

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Yes, very loud, one of my favorite verses (I have many)

BELIEVE means believing that Jesus died for your sins, was buried and rose on the third day and accepting His sacrifice for you. It means saying "Yes Lord! I love you! I want to serve you!" James says the devils believe and tremble--saving belief is more than acknowledging that the claims of Christ are true.

Sorry for the delay in posting as I was in the Midwest on a business trip.....

Originally posted by Matthew 16:24:
&gt;&gt;Now if you are wondering why I started to talk about obedience
&gt;&gt;because that is only way I believe you can lose your salvation.

"Lose" one's salvation?
I would like to see the Scripture that specifically addresses the recission of Grace. Until then, I contend that this belief is unscriptural.

&lt;snip&gt;
&gt;&gt;Contradiction here?

Uh, No.

&gt;&gt;Are you saying there is nothing you can do to save your own &gt;&gt;soul?

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

&gt;&gt;Did YOU not repent?
&gt;&gt;Did YOU not ask the Lord in your life?

Yes to both of these questions. That is how I accepted the Gift that God gave me. My acceptance makes me a recipient, not a participant.

&gt;&gt;So from your post I draw the conclusion that you believe that
&gt;&gt;everyone in the world is saved?

This is a completely asinine statement. How could anyone possibly deduce this from any of my statements? Show me in my posts where I made any reference to "everyone in the world." I would like to see the specific post where I referred to anyone other than myself. To imply otherwise is an outright lie. That is twice: please re-consult Exodus 20:16.

&gt;&gt;That is how I belive [sic] a person gets saved.

I am curious about your belief that we have to live a certain life to perpetuate our aversion to losing God's Salvation. What is the proverbial "yardstick" with which our lives will be measured? In Romans 3:23 it states that "all" are sinners, and come short of the "Glory of God." What would be the maximum allowable amount of sin that would be permissible for the intercession of God's Grace? If someone has committed one act of adultery, does that exclude them from the Gift of God? What about five instances of theft, and one act of covetousness? Would that be an acceptable level of sin to get into Heaven? No wait: what about three lies, five thefts, and one case of anger over something innocuous?
By the way, is there a list of sins that can be utilized as a reference for my life so that I can have a comfort level with respect to my salvation?
Ephesians 2:8-9 states that we are saved by the GIFT of Grace, and not of works. Note that it only mentions Grace: there are no other qualifiers.

Originally posted by Matthew 16:24:

&gt;&gt;BELIEVE means believing that Jesus died for your sins, was &gt;&gt;buried and rose on the third day and accepting His sacrifice for &gt;&gt;you.

I agree with this statement.

&gt;&gt;It means saying "Yes Lord! I love you! I want to serve you!"

NO, it doesn't say that at all. The Specific Passage (John 3:16) to which you refer does not state this in any way, shape or form.
Is that what happens when one accepts God's Gift? I would very much argue that one would subscribe to this belief if they were truly aware of their complete and total unworthiness.

Don't add thoughts to Scriptural Passages regardless of their relevance.

Saved means I am not going to hell, it doesn't mean I am on my way to heaven. You cannot be saved from hell and at some point in the future go to hell. If you ever go to hell (because of something you did or didn't do) then you weren't saved from hell, were you. You were merely on your way to being saved from hell but you weren't ACTUALLY saved from hell. Once you have been saved from hell you are always saved from hell. Nothing else is possible, NOTHING. This boggles my mind how anyone could say that the definition of being saved is that I am merely on my way to being saved from hell. You are either saved (and not going to hell) or you are not saved yet (and you may or may not go to hell).

I belive oce saved, saved forever. By the grace of God, not the works or will of me. Glad He's doing it, or I'd have something to worry about

Bob

And yet, so many verses warning against falling away...

I also believe that once you are saved, you are ALWAYS saved!

God bless,
Nancy

I believe once saved always saved also. However, I've got a question. I know that it's between this person and God, but what would you think?
I've been talking to a person who says they were 'once' a Christian. Currently, they are DEEP into the New Age beliefs ... God is in us all, we are all God, no hell, no evil, no punishment, etc. They have even taken verses in the Bible and twisted them to say that it says that we are God, when we were talking. Do you think there's much chance that this person was REALLY saved before and has gotten this far from God? An old missionary that I've known all my life (Independent Baptist), once said that he believed that a person could backslide so far, that he actually could forget that he was ever saved, but he would still not lose his salvation, just his rewards.

Wygal, Scripture says...

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. NKJV

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New Age is so way off base. I listened to a tape from that Williamson woman a few years ago at a friend's insistence and it REALLY upset me. Just beware!

Diane Tavegia

Thanks, Diane. And YES, the New Age beliefs are so way off base, it's hard to know where to even begin with them. If they ask something, I answer, but it's hard to even talk, because their God, Jesus, and everything, has a different meaning. It's unreal. The main thing I've been doing, is answering by using the Bible, hoping to plant a few seeds. When the Scripture has already been given to them, I think there's a point where continuing on probably isn't very wise, but hopefully some of the seeds will sprout and grow. I do believe God's Word won't return void, like He says.