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King Jesus?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Tim, Dec 21, 2003.

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  1. Tim

    Tim New Member

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    LE,

    I wish it were! On another thread, one participant said that Jesus was a King without a kingdom. I've had people in Sunday school tell me they were nervous whenever I started discussing the kingdom as Jesus described it in the NT. And I've sung hymns (though I skipped parts) such as "Is it the Crowning Day?", which states that some future day WE will crown Jesus King! I've also known a pastor who ministered in Europe and refused to acknowledge Ascension Sunday--saying all it meant was that Jesus went up to heaven (nothing of His ascension to the throne).

    Unfortunately, this is a real issue.

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
    #21 Tim, Dec 26, 2003
  2. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Discussing Jesus as King is never silly, LadyEagle. I am surprised and very, very disappointed that you think so. [​IMG] I am very happy to have Jesus as King of kings and Lord of lords, right now and forevermore. [​IMG]
     
    #22 KenH, Dec 26, 2003
  3. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Ken, you're a hoot. ;)
     
    #23 LadyEagle, Dec 26, 2003
  4. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    LadyEagle, likewise. ;)
     
    #24 KenH, Dec 26, 2003
  5. Tim

    Tim New Member

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    BTW, if you believe that Jesus now reigns as King, you can really appreciate Handel's "Messiah" a lot better!

    Merry Christmas,

    Tim
     
    #25 Tim, Dec 26, 2003
  6. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    BTW, if you believe in the sound of the trumpet, being changed in the twinkling of an eye, saints coming back to Rule & Reign with Jesus AND the KJV, you will really enjoy Handel's Messiah, LOL! [​IMG]


    Source

    Oh, yes, Tim, I know that Jesus Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords but ONE day, this whole wide world will know it when He, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah is sitting on David's Throne and ruling with a Rod of Iron - and then when Satan is released from the bottomless pit after 1000 years and the Final Battle takes place - I (little ole me) and all the Blood Washed Saints of God, will Rule and Reign with Jesus Christ Forever & Forever Hallelujah!!

    [​IMG]
     
    #26 LadyEagle, Dec 26, 2003
  7. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    PS: I hope you observed proper tradition and STOOD UP during the Hallelujah Chorus! ;)
     
    #27 LadyEagle, Dec 26, 2003
  8. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Why is the idea of being with Jesus in the new heavens and earth not sufficient for you, LadyEagle? Why do you have this hangup about this present physical earth that is to be destroyed by fire?

    I am afraid your eschatology is quite tainted by materialism. [​IMG]
     
    #28 KenH, Dec 26, 2003
  9. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Ken - Hope you were just trying to goad LE with that comment. For the majority of BB members, we believe the Bible teaching a literal Kingdom of the Heavens over the earth on which Jesus will literally sit on a literal throne and literally rule over the earth.

    Every knee WILL bow . . but not now. Every tongue WILL confess . . but not now.

    All historic dispensationalists are saying is that we are not "spiritualizing" or "allegorizing" the literal promises made by Jesus to establish a literal kingdom into some mystical, magical "I'm ruling now but nobody knows" mantra!

    Jesus IS king spiritually. Jesus WILL BE king physically.

    Hey, I'm not making this up. Just read Revelation again and yep, it's still there! [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    #29 Dr. Bob, Dec 27, 2003
  10. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus New Member

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    Great Discussion! I love to look at Luke 1:30 and more.
    Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
    Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
    Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
    Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
    Verse 30: Literal angel and literal woman named Mary.
    Verse 31: Literal conception and literal womb, literal son with a literal name -- Jesus. (all fulfilled BTW)
    Verse 32: He was literally called great and He was literally called the Son of the Highest. Now we have our problem. It is not a problem if you stay consistent with the text. Many want to jump to a spiritual kingdom and a spiritual throne with a spiritual King. Sounds like the spiritualizers to me. Another Big problem is that if you spiritualize the throne and the King then you must show me where David had a spiritual throne. Too big a jump for me.
    I have seen many verses so far that say that the Lord Christ is sitting at the right hand of His Father in heaven but have yet to see any verse that says he is DEFINATELY occupying a throne in that position. He is acting as mediator, advocate, as my propitiation but I have not seen one verse that says that He is a reigning King now on His throne. I believe like Dr. Bob, if He is King of this mess we have now, it's not saying much. My King will take charge and change it all. Just like His healings, He never missed a lick. The spiritualizers monkey don't hunt!
    Thanks -----Bart "the dueling society was a polite society".
     
    #30 Bartimaeus, Dec 27, 2003
  11. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus New Member

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    Wow! Doc, we must be a double team, thinkin' the same thing at the same time. I have good company.
    Thanks -----Bart
     
    #31 Bartimaeus, Dec 27, 2003
  12. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    It is by faith that we can see Christ ruling and reigning in the world today. We walk by faith, not by sight. Those things which are discerned with the natural eyes are temporal, but the things which are discerned by faith's eyes, are eternal.

    God has always ruled in the affairs of the earth, and that is evident according to the Scriptures:
    And let's not forget the Proverb which many of you were content to ignore:
    It's as the hymn says,

    He rules the world with truth and grace,
    and makes the nations prove
    the glories of His righteousness
    and wonders of His love.

    Even in Pharoah's hardness of heart. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.... God raised Pharoah as a forum to declare the glories of His righteousness in the wrath He poured out upon him, and the wonders of His love toward His elect. (Rom. 9:17-23)

    Still today the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. He still makes the nations prove the glories of His righteousness even in their disobedience.

    The question boils down to whether one believes God is really God or not. To say that Christ is not reigning in this world today simply because it doesn't look like He is reigning betrays a fundamental lack of faith. Take heed lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.
     
    #32 Aaron, Dec 27, 2003
  13. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Yep, God is ruling, sovereign and almighty. Nothing happens without His plan and determinate counsel. Nobody is going to disagree with that (except a few Arminians who are in charge of their own salvation!!).

    But the description of the literal kingdom to come is quite distinctive than the generic overall understanding of the King.

    Just as Jesus WAS king in His first advent, he did not rule/reign AS king. He was the meek servant Who came to die. Did not change the fact that he WAS king.

    But one day (soon, I pray with John) the Lord will return to rule AS king. No one is going to cross Him this time. He WILL BE king.
     
    #33 Dr. Bob, Dec 27, 2003
  14. Tim

    Tim New Member

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    OK, You claim you see no indication that Jesus now reigns enthroned in heaven.
    Let's examine the passage in Acts 2:29-36
    Peter's arguments go as follows:

    FIRST ARGUMENT

    1. David prophesied that God would raise Christ from the dead to sit upon David's throne (vv. 29-31 which cites the Davidic covenant).

    2. God did raise Christ from the dead (v. 32).

    3. So the Father has exalted Christ, and the Holy Spirit was given as the gift of a victorious King (v. 33 & compare with Eph. 4:7-12 which quotes from Psalm 68, another case of a victorious king, David, who gave gifts).

    Conclusion: The clear implication--Christ was raised from the dead, and now sits upon the throne of David.

    SECOND ARGUMENT

    1. David did not ascend to the heavenly throne himself (vv. 34, 35 which cite Psalm 110).

    2. So David was refering to Jesus, whom God has proclaimed the Christ and Lord! And you guys killed him! (v. 36).

    3. So Repent! (v. 38).

    Conclusion: You're in big trouble, the one you crucified is now Lord!

    Note: Peter did not qualify his statement, saying, Christ is MY Lord, rather the implication is that whether they recognized Him as Lord or not, God did--so they were in trouble!

    So where does someone whom God has declared Lord sit?

    You fill in the blank.
    And don't tell me the Father's going to give up His seat. Hmmm, maybe the right hand? As typified by Joseph and Pharoah?

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
    #34 Tim, Dec 27, 2003
  15. Tim

    Tim New Member

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    Bartimaeus,

    Literalism the rule?

    Try Mark 8:14-21. There Christ scolded his disciples for being too literal.

    And of course, we won't mention the NT time indicators. I take them literally. Bet you don't.
    But that's another thread.

    Tim
     
    #35 Tim, Dec 27, 2003
  16. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    But I thought that premillennialists in general, and dispensationalists in particular, claim that many will cross Him this time, per their interpretation of Revelation 20:9.
     
    #36 KenH, Dec 27, 2003
  17. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus New Member

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    Bro Tim,
    Peter preached to the multitude identified in chap. 1 verse 6, also to those mentioned in verses 12&13. Answering your points:
    First Argument
    No.1 I agree, yet I would like for you to answer these simple questions.
    Was David's sepulchre on the earth?
    Was David's throne on the earth?
    Was David's sepulchre a literal sepulchre or a spiritual one?
    Was David's throne a literal throne or a spiritual throne?
    No.2 I agree, Amen!
    No.3 On this point you have not established your position that Christ is sitting on a throne in heaven. You say that it is clearly concluded, maybe inferred by your pattern of thinking but not concluded. The Bible says that Christ hath made us to be kings and priests (Rev 1:6), but you are not on a throne... yet.
    Second Argument
    No.1 Verse 34 says nothing about a throne unless you want to suggest "sit thou on my right hand", inferres this. If you do you must stipulate facts for your position. It is not clear. Ps 110 does not stipulate a throne either.
    No.2 I agree that David was referring to the Lord Jesus and the fact that He is sitting at the Father's right hand does not establish the position of a throne for Him.
    No.3 Great message. Still needs to be preached today.
    So where does one sit who is declared Lord? Exactly where the Bible says, at the right hand. It does not say anything about a throne. Your reference on Gen 41 and Joseph is a good one yet it does not support your position. ie. "set him over the land of Egypt" v33, "thou shalt be over my house" v40, new ring, new clothes, gold chain, the people bowed because he road in Chariot #2, yet no throne mentioned with the exception of Pharoah's. This is strongly suggestive that if God mentions all these other things and Pharoah would have set him on a throne I am sure it would have been mentioned. Does not support your position and filling in the blanks with anything but a literal throne of a literal King is jumping.
    Thanks -----Bart
     
    #37 Bartimaeus, Dec 28, 2003
  18. Tim

    Tim New Member

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    Bart,

    I think you're really going around the barn to disagree with my arguments from Acts 2. But how do you deal with a direct statement such as we see in Revelation 3:21?

    "To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

    Here Jesus claims a throne. Overcomers will sit with Him in His throne EVEN AS Christ already overcame and sits with the Father in His throne.

    Basic rule: Overcomers sit with the authority in His throne. Christ overcame. So where does He sit?

    Surely you see a sense of joint rulership in these statements? Father with Son, Son with overcoming saints.

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
    #38 Tim, Dec 28, 2003
  19. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Don't see any real disagreement here. Think that EVERYONE believes that Jesus is the King in Heaven today.

    Two views of His actual physical reign would be the pre-mill position (mine, the correct one of course) where Jesus will literally return and actually literally rule for 1000 years. And the post-mill/a-mill position where such rule and promises are allegorical or typical only.

    We ALL accept Jesus is King. Ought to start a new thread on the two underlying interpretations that cause the friction.
     
    #39 Dr. Bob, Dec 28, 2003
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