Are babies elect??

"God elected before the foundation of the world."

Ephesians1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

This verse deals specifically with "us" being holy and without blame "in Him". This is because until we are saved we are NOT holy and blameless before him, we are sinners; deserving of hell, unrighteous, unholy, ungodly sinners. It is God's choosing that being in him is what makes us holy and w/o blame before him. Not that he chose some and didn't choose others.

God elected from the beginning.
There were elect who had not yet obtained salvation."
2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect‘s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

The "elect" speaking to Timothy about is Israel.

I'm sorry if your lust for debate is overriding the need for understanding these verses in context, of course it is because of the tradition in teaching you have received. It's one of those thingsa that really doesn't amount much either way, but it certainly is becoming a waste of time to keep repeating myself. I have seen the misinterpetation for many years of the "predestination", "elect", "chosen" verses.

If God's "election/choosing" holds precidence and that will determine the eternal state of the created being, then the 1/3 of His "chosen" angelic host and Lucifer, himself bumped the "system" long before man was ever created.(Sortof sheds new light on the subject, huh?) Wasn'ty Lucifer God's "chosen"? I know His angels are His "chosen"/elect, and Lucifer was His # 1 angel of music.

We are chosen "to be" holy and blameless in Him, not chosen to be in him, holy and blameless, simply because of the time before salvation we are not holy and blameless. (Whoops! I'm repeating myself again!) But I guess I had to.

 

That is simply not true. You are reading your theology into the Scripture.

2 Tim. 2:8-10 (ESV)
[8]Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, [9] for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound! [10] Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

The context is the gospel that Paul preached. And to whom did Paul preach primarily? What does the Bible say?

Romans 15:16 (ESV)
to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 2:2 (ESV)
I went up because of a revelation and set before them (though privately before those who seemed influential) the gospel that I proclaim among the Gentiles, in order to make sure I was not running or had not run in vain.

Galatians 2:7 (ESV)
On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised

So, you are simply WRONG! Period.

Now, let's see you argue with the Bible, if you dare.

 

Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

If Jacob is "elect", then why didn't the aLORD call him elect? Why is it that He calls Israel elect?


Isaiah 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
Isaiah 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect‘s sake those days shall be shortened.
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect‘s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Luke 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

It's not my theology, but God's theology:

Romans 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


Now explain what Paul is saying here. Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin, of the nation of Israel, God's Elect. But until he became a child of God, he was only a descendent of Abraham.

I'd try rightly dividing the Word if I were you, before I spout off about things that I didn't really know.

 

Jacob is Israel.

Bro. Dallas
Matt. 27.25
SOBG

 

Correction: Israel was Jacob

 

Correction to correction: In the prophets (which was the verse in question, "Jacob" is another term for the nation of Israel. It is poetry. It says the same thing in different ways.

 

Maybe by "your" definition, but not by the LORD's.

Everytime you see (of course in the AV1611), Jacob used it is in reference to him prior to Genesis 32 he is defined a "subplanter" or "sinner", "deceiver", etc. Or nation of sinners. After that, you find him referred to as "Israel": (from Easton's)The name conferred on Jacob after the great prayer-struggle at Peniel #Ge 32:28 because "as a prince he had power with God and prevailed." See Easton on JACOB 1945 This is the common name given to Jacob’s descendants. The whole people of the twelve tribes are called "Israelites," the "children of Israel" #Jos 3:17 7:25 Jud 8:27 Jer 3:21 and the "house of Israel" #Ex 16:31 40:38 This name Israel is sometimes used emphatically for the true Israel #Ps 73:1 Isa 45:17 49:3 Joh 1:47 Ro 9:6 11:26 After the death of Saul the ten tribes arrogated to themselves this name, as if they were the whole nation #2Sa 2:9,10,17,28 3:10,17 #2Sa 19:40-43 and the kings of the ten tribes were called "kings of Israel," while the kings of the two tribes were called "kings of Judah." After the Exile the name Israel was assumed as designating the entire nation.

But never as "Jacob"

 

All Bibles, including the KJV disagree with you. All you need to do it get out your concordance and look it up.

But enough of this. Let's get back to the topic at hand.

 

ITNAC,

You know, for someone who doesn't really know me from Adam, you presume to know an awful lot about me. And all this time I thought my lust was for carefully handling the word of truth.

Let's see.... on the one hand, the scripture says that "he hath chosen us". It has God choosing people. On the other hand, ITNAC says what it really means is not that God chose people, but that God chose the process by which people are made holy. Hmmmm.....which one should I go with?

Let's see, Paul just got done saying: "...I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher unto the Gentiles, for which sake I also suffer these things..." Here, Paul is telling us he is enduring suffering for the sake of bringing the gospel to the gentiles, and that that's the job he was appointed by God to do, and then a few paragraphs later, you tell us that the elect Paul is suffering for in order that they may obtain salvation is the Israelites. Something isn't adding up.

I'd really like to see some scriptural support for any one of these statements. Maybe you could spend tomorrow looking those scriptures up for me.

You know, people might pay a lot more attention to what you write is you didn't include offensive stuff like this comment and the one I quoted at the start of my post. These sorts of comments don't help your case one whit.

 

All Bibles, including the KJV disagree with you. All you need to do it get out your concordance and look it up.

But enough of this. Let's get back to the topic at hand. </font>[/QUOTE]Au contraire! If 'election" is what yall say it is, then Jacob and Israel have everything to do with this topic.

If "election" is true by your definition, then Esau maintained his birthright and Jacob never "supplanted" it away from him. Hmmm? There is MUCH to be considered here, don'tcha think? (In light of the original question: "Are babies elect?")

Maybe Larry, it is you don't like the indepth study I am doing regarding this thread and are opposed to the exposure? You cannot change what I already know concerning whether babies are elect. But I do know this, Israel is God's Elect, not Jacob!

Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Now who is elect? Jacob or Israel? Which did God name?

 

Election is from all eternity. Predestination is in the eternal mind of God, but the application to us in real time is later in the chain of events in Romans 8:30. Election does not "happen" it just "is". Being born again is something that happens in real time when the Spirit applies to His people what election has already determined should happen.

Romans 9:11(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls)

Romans 8:30Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

 

Oops. Sorry folks! I was not reading the last post of the thread, but the last post on page one! My last post will seem entirely out of place.