Sin -vs- Sins

Pastor Bob,

This is a question that I struggled with soon after I was saved. If Jesus died on the cross to pay for ALL of our sins, why do we need to go to the Father and ask for forgiveness?

As far as the answer that the I found, look to John 13:10:

Joh 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: (Yes, I know this is taken out of context, and is being used in a way that has nothing to do with the text, but bear with me)

Jesus was explaining to Peter that if a person has already bathed, he need only wash his feet to be clean. In a like manner, we were washed clean when we accepted Jesus' finished work and believed by faith. But, like peter and the other disciples, we "walk" here on this dirty, dusty world, and our "feet" become soiled. When we go to the Father, we go not to ask for the forgiveness that we already have, but to be cleansed from the taint of the dirt of our lives.

Jesus took ALL of our sin when He hung upon the cross, so to ask to be forgiven again would be to recrucify the Lord. But we still commit sin, and we need to go to the Father to be cleansed of it.

Allow me to illustrate. A boy hits his baseball, and it smashes through the living room window. His father saw what happened and knows the details already. The boy has a choice: he can go to his father and confess, or he can try to pass it off and lie. The first chice brings restoration (removal of guilt), even if the son must still be punished (reap the consequences). The second brings on more guilt, more lies (to cover the first), and more punishment (chastisement).

We can not go to God and confess our sins to Him, but then we carry around the guilt of those sins. If we go to our Father and confess to Him what we have done (which He already has full knowledge of), we are free from the guilt we felt. Now, Satan likes to try to rope that millstone back around our necks by reminding us of our failures, but if we have brought them before the Lord, we can tell him to take a hike!

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Our present sin is covered in Christ’s atoning death but that sin damages the present relationship we have with God. The Spirit greaves when we sin. Confession and asking forgiveness restores the fellowship that is affected by our sin. That’s the main message of 1 John!

Praise God for His grace.

Rob

 

Pastor Bob, that is an excellent question.

1 John 1:9 isn't for Christians. It is one of the most abused passages.

People try to get around it by saying we lose fellowship with God. I would like to see one passage that even hints at that garbage. We don't lose fellowship, ever. Christians enjoy all the blessings the creative mind of God can bestow. We are adopted into his family.

 

Well, then, we might also ask, if God already knows what will transpire in the individual lives of His children, if He already knows the trials and tribulations His children will go thru, if He already knows the battle they must face, and the needs they will have, why must we still pray ?

The answer is because He commands us to pray because in prayer we reaffirm our dependence on Him, we acknowledge His sovereignty over all things, we admit we are nothing without Him.

So it is, I believe with asking for forgiveness. In so doing we acknowldege that we are sinners saved by grace, forgiven simply because God chose to be merciful to us, and that sin is always detestable to a Holy God, even if the one committing is one whom He foreknew from the foundation of the world, and whose every sin has been atoned for thru the blood of Calvary's Lamb.

 

1 John 1:9 is for Christians, sir. John addressed them as "we".

Here it is in context:

While we will never lose our eternal salvation, the Bible is full of warnings against allowing sin to stay unconfessed and unforsaken while we are in this plane called time.

Every word in the Bible is for Christians, sir, because the Bible was written for our instruction and admonishment, and as our example.
It was not written for the unsaved, the unelect, the wicked. It is a book for God's children.

 

I guess I am in the garbage camp. When the Holy Spirit shows me I have sinned, I know there is a distance in my relationship with God until I have acknowledged my sin and humbled myself asking for his forgiveness -- which is always there.

However the sin of rebellion against God as a part of my nature is gone for good, nailed to the cross. All my sins are atoned for, but that does not mean I will not sin. And sin is always an affront to God, and always that is a painful thing, for me at least. Always I want things restored as soon as possible. Hence, my request always for forgiveness. Maybe it's only a 'formality' on my part, but it is one that does restore the closeness in my heart to my Lord.

 

The Heavenly Father will always see the blood of Jesus Christ when he looks at us. But our fellowship(Daniel David) is broken with Christ, not our sonship.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

 

Okay, I will exegete the text and demonstrate my point:

1 John 1:6-9
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Okay, I will break it up into two categories with the verse next to each point:

Group 1
1. We have fellowship with God - 6
2. We walk in the light - 7
3. We have fellowship with one another - 7
4. The blood of Christ cleanses one from all sin - 7
5. Confess sin and receive forgiveness - 9

Group 2
1. Walk in darkness - 6
2. Lie - 6
3. Do not practice the truth - 6
4. Deceive yourself - 8
5. No truth in you - 8

Okay, when this is divided up, you can see that two types of people are spoken of. Believers are described as having fellowship with God, fellowship with believers, walking in the light, being cleansed (past and present and future), being forgiven.

Unbelievers on the other hand are described as those who walk in darkness, lie, deceive themselves, do not practice the truth and have no truth in them. That is the group that has no fellowship.

Homebound, those verses do not contradict my interpretation at all. I fail to see their relevance. Of course we have sonship. This notion of losing fellowship is broken upon the rocks of 1 John 1:6-9 (usually the very text used by some to prove it can happen).

There is no mention of a loss of fellowship for believers. To imply such is to imply that one could lose their salvation. I refuse to go where the text does not. Like I said, please demonstrate from the text that one could lose fellowship. I don't care for a reasoned argument that isn't based in the word.

 

James, perhaps the problem is in definitions. Losing fellowship is perhaps a bad term, but it is definitely not the same as losing salvation. I don't think anyone is arguing loss of salvation here (I may be wrong, but I am certainly not arguing that!).

I know you don't like personal stories, as you have told me so yourself, but bear with me. I have six children. Two (ages 21 and 24) are not talking to me right now. They are independent!. This does not mean they are not my children. It does not mean I do not love them. It does not mean I will not welcome them back into family fellowship when they have matured a little and life has humbled them a bit! We are definitely out of fellowship right now, but they are not out of the family.

And I have done the same with God on occasion. We all have. For as you quoted, if any man says he does not sin, the truth is not in him! We all sin. Sin is always a break from God, forgiven or not. Not a loss of salvation, certainly, but a loss of that closeness and that complete companionship. Inside myself, I am restless until that is restored. I need to confess and receive His forgiveness (which was always there anyway!) so that the lines of communication are clear and open again: fellowship is restored, for those who like the word fellowship. For those who don't, a clear and open relationship is restored.

That is what is being talked about. Peter, for instance, was distant from Christ when he denied Him. But he was restored to fellowship by Christ Himself. We have all struggled, we have all sinned. We have all rebelled in our childish independance a number of times. That is only a mark of our immaturity, not of our dissociation from God when we are already born again!

We will be disciplined (Heb. 12) and NO discipline is pleasant at the time. It is always needed, however, for the precise purposes of maturing us and restoring open communication and fellowship with God Himself.

 

Helen, part of my reason of even participating on this particular thread was to point out how saying one loses "fellowship" isn't accurate.

People can and do lose the closeness of the walk with God. That I agree with. No matter where we God, the Lord is there (Psalm 139).

The wonder of all of this is that our bind with God through Christ is so strong, that we can do nothing to break it. Praise Christ for his unspeakable love.

 

I had a feeling it was probably a definition/communication problem. Thanks.

 

False. 1 John was written to Christians (1:3b; 1:5; 2:1, 12-14,19; 3:1; 5:13,20 et.al.)

The group 2 Daniel David refers to contains the conditional "if we say." It is highly likely he is referring to the Gnostics, because this is what they were saying.

At this moment, I will not address the issue of "broken fellowship" because I'm out of time and partially because I'm sympathetic to Daniel David's position and respect for the atonement. If people say "well, then why confess our sins?" my answer is simple: God's word commands that we do. However, covenant blessings can be withheld and individual or corporate witness/influence can be lost because of sin so I also see the other side of the coin.

Sorry, my mother's stuffing awaits!!!!!!

 

TomVols, I meant the part about "losing fellowship". That isn't for Christians.