Bush Hating

Thanks Kiffen,

I knew I liked you!

 

I completely agree that those who refuse to work should not be supported. But very, very few of the poor people in any society are poor because they refuse to work.

 

Come visit Indianapolis and I will show you lots of people who are poor and who won't work. Our streets are jammed with winos that people feel sorry for and so they give winos money. There have been plenty of news stories about how beggars in New York City make upper-middle class incomes by begging. And San Francisco even gives monthly checks to homeless people.

As for Canadian socialized medicine, Indianapolis radio host Greg Garrison, who successfully prosecuted Mike Tyson for rape here in Indianapolis during a Black Expo, says that the fastest growing sector in American medicine is the hospitals and clinics along the Canadian border where Canadians cross over to get medical attention that socialized medicine in Canada is too bankrupt to deliver to them in a timely manner.

 

That is absolute nonesense and a huge lie that American's like to hear to make their inadequate system look better.

We have no problem getting full medical care in Canada. There are a few impatient people who demand more and if they have the money let them pay for it abroad. All the more room for us.

We don't lose our home over medical care and don't tell me it doesn't happen in the great US of A because my daughter is a doctor in Florida. Ask her about the great American system.

One fellow was shifted between five hospitals in Michigan trying to find a hospital that would take him.

Mercy, your people are even flocking to Canada to get drugs from our so-called bankrupt system. So stop spreading the lies instantly. Straighten out your own mess.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Who are you saying is spreading lies?

Indianapolis is home to Lilly Pharmaceuticals. We are aware of the Canadian price controls and the negative effect that that has on research and development of new medicines. The United States is taking steps to limit the amount of medicine sold to Canada. The pharmaceutical corporations feel that even they did not sell to Canada, then Canada would merely violate patent law and copy the medicines. Americans feel that we are subsidizing Canadians by paying fair price for medicine while Canadians refuse to pay.

 

Very few Americans feel we are paying fair prices, I'd bet you'd find if you took a poll. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree with you Daisy. It must be a first!

 

Whoa. What do you mean that we are not paying fair prices? We are. We are paying for research and development so that Lilly and others can market new medicines.

You are not addressing the situation with Canada where they are willing to force American companies to sell at what amounts to a loss or stand by and watch their products copied. No socialized medical system is ever going to create new medicines. Socialism is parasitical.

Lilly employs thousands of people and spends billions of dollars on research and development. It complies with tedious US regulations and FDA regulations. Not only that, the Lilly Family has been very generous not only in Indianapolis but throughout the United States in its foundational gifts. American medicine has been the best in the world because it has been a free enterprise system. If you want less than the best, look around you.

 

quote:
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Originally posted by Brett:
In my opinion, the government SHOULD steal from the rich and give it to the poor, which will obviously make for a more economically equitable society.
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Which of the remaining nine commandments do you not agree with?

 

I've been trying to resist posting this, but I can't any more.


THE ANT AND THE GRASSHOPPER
The Original Version..

The ant busts his tail in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he's a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away. Come winter the ant is warm and well fed. The grasshopper has no food or shelter so he dies out in the cold.


The New Liberal Version...

It starts out the same but when winter comes the shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others are cold and starving. CBS, NBC, and ABC show up and show pictures of the shivering grasshopper next to film of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with food.

America is stunned by the sharp contrast. How can it be, in a country of such wealth that this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so? Then a representative of the NAAGB (The National Association of Green Bugs) shows up on Night Line and charges the ant with "Green Bias" and makes the case that the grasshopper is the victim of 30 million years of greenism. Kermit the frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper and everybody cries when he sings "It's Not Easy Being Green."

Bill and Hillary Clinton make a special guest appearance on the CBS evening news and tell a concerned Dan Rather That they will do everything they can for the grasshopper who has been denied the prosperity he deserves by those who benefited unfairly during the summer, or as Bill refers to it, the "Temperatures Of The 80's".

Finally the EEOC drafts the "Economic Equity and Anti-Greenism Act" RECTRO-ACTIVE to the beginning of the summer. The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and having nothing left to pay his Retro-Active taxes, his home is confiscated by the government.

The story ends as we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits of the ant's food while the government house he's in....which just happens to be the ant's old house.... crumbles around him since he doesn't know how to maintain it. The ant has disappeared in the snow. And on the TV; which the grasshopper bought by selling most of the ant's food, Bill Clinton is standing before a wildly applauding group of Democrats announcing that a new era of "Fairness" has dawned in America.

THE END

Author Jim Quinn, WRRK FM 97 in Pittsburgh

 

Yes, that philosophy worked very well in Cuba, China, North Korea, and the Soviet Union did it not? They really became more economically equitable societies

 

So, the poor are all winos and wasters, are they? How very Christian

Hardsheller, you asked for some Biblical references re unfairness. Here are some starters:-

Amos is particularly ‘anti-rich’, attacking their lifestyles and their abuse of the poor, together with injustice and judicial bribery (Amos 2:6-7; 3:15; 5:7; 5:12-13; 6:4-5). This is unacceptable to God (Amos 5:21-24). Micah is equally critical: the rich appropriate others’ property and destroy the poor (Micah 2:2; 3:2-3). Similar themes can be found in Isaiah 3:14-15; 10:1-4 and 58:1-6.

PA Jim: who is breaking the 8th commandment more - rich corporations and their MDs who exploit accidents of birth, good education (privately paid for of course, wouldn't want our nice preppy kids mixing with smelly poor people, would we?), corporate tax break and their minimum wage employees who work just as hard as they do and yet get paid a pittance;or governments that seek to redress that gross inequality?

As for it all being done by private charity, well, I wish that were so, but unfortunately that is an unrealistic aim. If individuals are doing such a good job, how come so many Brits and Americans are below the poverty line? Yes, my wish is that private charity was so wide-spread that poverty would be a thing of the past in the West, never mind the two-thirds world, and government intervention unnecessary. But it ain't, hence the need for government to fill the void, both at home and abroad. For instance, our governments should write off the debts of the poorer nations; this is eminently Scriptural


Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Matt,

Amos was right. But the solution he presented was national repentance - not that the government arbitrarily take more from the rich and give it to the poor.

Justice in both our countries comes when right thinking men and women are voted into office and work hard to bring about needed social change in a fair and evenhanded manner that encourages the majority of people affected on all sides and brings about a revival of civic mindedness and responsibility.

 

Some poor are. So are some rich.

So, that's God's standard for obedience...intentionally "breaking the commandments less than the next guy"?

A worker should be paid a fair wage. It is a shame to see highly profitable businesses with employees who can't support a family. But that's a moral issue, not a legal one.

As to what you call "accidents of birth"...let's see.

Joe works hard, has an average job, saves his money, lives very frugally, and is able to send his kids to good schools.

Henry also works hard, but doesn't get paid much. He also does a good job with what he has, but can't afford private schooling for his kids.

Frank has a higher salary than both, but chooses only to work about half the time, and play golf the rest of the time while Joe and Henry are at work. Hence, he takes home less money over a year. He spends a lot of money irresponsibly, and has a hard time paying the bills.

Is the answer to deny Joe's kids the good education that their daddy worked so hard to give to them, in order to steal money from him to give it to A) Henry, who still won't have enough for private schooling (or perhaps doesn't see the need for it) and B) Frank, who will blow it on stereos and vacations?, leaving Joe with too little to send his kids to private school?

Doesn't sound too fair and equitable to me.

First, it used to be handled privately in the US, for hundreds of years. It worked pretty well, and the best part is that it did not institutionalize the breaking of the eighth commandment.

Second, I turn the question back to you...if government programs work so well, why, with many, many billions spent on social programs do we have so many in poverty? (btw if you look at the "poverty line" in our nations, it would equate to high living in many parts of the world).

BTW...I am not comfortable with the title of this thread. I don not hate GW Bush. I very much hate what he is doing to our nation, along with many in Washington. But personally I wish him no ill.

 

In answer to your first scenario, it should go from Frank to Henry.

In answer to your second question, why doesn't social spending work, part of the answer is that it will never fully work because of wastage, but where implemented does work better than private charity eg Scandinavia, Germany etc. But I think the main answer as far as the US is concerned is that you have never - and this will come as a shock to you - had a fully implemented social welfare structure in your country, despite New Deal and the Great Society reforms, in comparison with us in Europe. For example, even Medicaid and Medicare at their 'strongest' still did not come up to the level of "provision of care delivered free of charge" of our National Health Service at its Thatcherite worst.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Sorry Matt,

We got into the Family Spat in the first place over unfair taxes. Seems like your side of the pond just never did "get it".

The reason we will never implement full social welfare is because we've seen how well it doesn't work around the world.

Thanks but no Thanks we'll just stick to our (in your opinion) backward country bumpkin ways.

Oh By the way -

Could you tell me the current unemployment rate in Great Britain?

And while you're at it what is the current Tax Percentage you're paying on your Income?

 

Wasn't the unfairness to do with lack of representation, though, rather than taxes per se?

Re my personal income tax - I pay 40%, 22% and 10%, depending on which slice of my income you are looking at - I pay 10% on the first £1960, 22% between £1961 and £30500 and 40% on everything above £30500. Unemployment rate is 3.1%

Why do some of you equate taxation with theft? Just interested - is it a legacy of 1775? Presumably you have no objection to paying tax for defence and police?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Taxation is mis-spent. I don't know any "poor" people.

*Someone I know lives in state housing. She works, her kids wear far more expensive clothes than mine do. I am aware that she also has her bills paid by a church.

*Someone I know used to steal from parked cars. Said he was too good to be told what to do by an employer. "Partied" too heavy and 12 yrs ago contracted aids - SS then began paying him a full wage. He gets very excited about "payday" so they can re-stock on the drugs. He gets his food from charitys. Oh, and btw he pays ZERO for his medical

*A local church has a nice big house for any homeless people. They have to attend money mgmt courses and AA, they also have to assist with household chores and take part in job training. There are always vacancies (the house has never been full.)Most of the "homeless" in THAT city say that they don't want to be told what to do. An invitation is offered to EVERY SINGLE homeless person they find.

*My grandma offered all the low income people in her small town to come help in her very large garden, to get fresh veggies, etc. - she thought they would be thrilled and she could help teach them how to can it all, etc. Not a single peron was interested. They told the people at the welfare office that it was too much work.

My opinions are not without base, Mr. Black. I was a single mom without a college degree and I worked many many hours and left small kids with realtives so I could keep them in Christian school. I managed to keep my house, but I had given it to the Lord. All I begged Him for was to let my kids stay in Christian school. He provided.

I gave you just a very few examples of the money waste that I am aware of. I bet I could give you a hundred (literally).

We do give outside of the taxation. The taxation is crazy and no one cares where the money goes, as long as it comes in, and they want more.

 

Jul, your posts are excellent!

 

Really? You'd take it from:

and give it to:

??

You're a bigger thief than I imagined.

Hey, how about sending me about a thousand dollars a month. I could use some time off.