Pensecola Christian Collage

Andy, you're right. It is driven by a desire to be scholarly and intellectual. Note the number of books, not textbooks, published by BJU authors in the past decade. The problem is most of it is still pabulum. Of course, if it’s mush, then it really doesn’t really matter whether it is old mush or new mush; it’s still mush nonetheless. As far as I know, they have produced only one book of any real significance and it was based on another man’s original ideas. We’re not talking about a lot of heavy and original thinkers here. These are men who quote other men’s works. Their greatest scholar, Herr Salter, is passed on. The younger men are the ones who were brought up in the Bob Jonesy tradition and filled the ideal. They’re simply clones, no originals left. There can be too much in-breeding because you keep replicating your errors and no one is bold enough to speak up and put a stop to the foolishness. With in-breeding, the good genes diminish and the bad genes proliferate.

BTW, there’s been an infatuation at BJU with the Puritans, especially the American Puritans. The problem is that the Puritans had a lot of bad theology. Just because they were verbose and obscure doesn’t mean they were necessarily intellectual, profound, or even right. I think the run-of-the-mill college prof doesn’t really understand this and most certainly the students don’t. They think if we could only get back to the Puritans, then we would have utopia! The Puritans thought that too when they established the Puritan commonwealth but look at the second generation Puritans—you had the “half-way covenant,” “Stoddardism,” “unconverted clergy,” etc. Yep, they were fine upstanding, moral citizens who were doctors, lawyers, clergymen, and statesmen that were lost and on their way to Hell. Ultimately, they were no better than the town drunk who at least had a whopping good time before he split the gates of Hell. Oh, BTW, the old drunk might have gotten saved during the awakening since he knew without a doubt that he was a lost sinner.

Is this where Fundamentalism is heading today? Are we sliding into a pious, Pharisaical Christianity?

 

As long as you keep that brush fairly narrow, I think yes that is exactly the state of many who would call themselves "the last fundamentalists"

A church such as mine, although it holds to fundamental docrtrines, and is fairly conservative on the key issues, separates from neo-evangelicalism, (and pseudo fundamentalism) gets a reputation of being neo, or even liberal because there is no preaching about slacks on women, or the fact that we do not use the KJV exclusively. I am not assuming this to be the case, I have heard it spoken with my own ears. Statements such as "I've been wondering what was going on there, it seems that church is drifting a little bit." or "I hear Pastor so and so is anti-kjv" That of course, is just their explanation for why they think our church is growing, not because they have any concrete examples of the so called drift. They notice that we on occasion will sing from the power point instead of the hymnal on Sunday night, and have been known to actually have evangelistic events that are not just a worship service. That after all is more important than a correct doctrinal stand.

I would not presume to know the actual heart of many of the so called fundamentalists who are more concerned with the outward manifestations than actual heart change, but while we were looking for a church, we found plenty of the type of fundamentalism you describe. They preached hard, about some issue that generated a bunch of amens, with very little actual scripture, and a total lack of proper exegesis. They wouldn't have asked me where I was on the road to progressive sanctification, or even the state of my soul, since as long as I had my hair trimmed neatly and brought my KJV to church, I must be saved and right with the Lord right? I grew up in church, I know how to look the part, thats easy. Actually studying the scripture and working on the areas of my life where my attitudes and though process do not align with God's Word, now that is tough.

 

Sorry, but I just have to ask, You don't think that Tennessee Temple University is a conservative school?

 

Personal prefernce, pure and simple. Music, on campus dress, etc. I don't like the men's and women's dorms sharing a commons area.

Again, personal preference only.

 

Thats because I chose to not put up much of a facade. You don't know how many times I heard from those in leadership, "Look at the great example so and so is" when I actually knew what was going on. We have many schools that a really good at teaching kids to be good IFB kids, but it would be nice if they were also actually regenerate, and maybe even with a little progressive sanctification thrown in for good measure. Anyone can easily teach kids how they are supposed to behave, but to actually guide them in their own spiritual growth is tougher.

 

Thats because I chose to not put up much of a facade. You don't know how many times I heard from those in leadership, "Look at the great example so and so is" when I actually knew what was going on. We have many schools that a really good at teaching kids to be good IFB kids, but it would be nice if they were also actually regenerate, and maybe even with a little progressive sanctification thrown in for good measure. Anyone can easily teach kids how they are supposed to behave, but to actually guide them in their own spiritual growth is tougher. </font>[/QUOTE]So, just how do you guide them in their spiritual growth? Perhaps, we should be somewhat like the Amish and encourage the young bucks to sow their wild oats and get it out of their system before coming into the church. It would do away with the problem that you're addressing here. Is this what you suggest?

 

Thats because I chose to not put up much of a facade. You don't know how many times I heard from those in leadership, "Look at the great example so and so is" when I actually knew what was going on. We have many schools that a really good at teaching kids to be good IFB kids, but it would be nice if they were also actually regenerate, and maybe even with a little progressive sanctification thrown in for good measure. Anyone can easily teach kids how they are supposed to behave, but to actually guide them in their own spiritual growth is tougher. </font>[/QUOTE]So, are you proud of this?

 

While I am not proud of all my behavior, I am definitely not ashamed that people saw who I really was for the most part, not some ridiculous farce of spirituality that can be easily trained into kids without any actual heart change.

As far as teaching kids, you have to at some point move from simple obedience to actually guide your children to the same consclusions as you (as much as is possible) They will eventually be making their own decisions without you, or at least should be capable of doing so, and you have to plan for that time, simple obedience is not enough for older children and teens. At some point they do need to understand the "why", otherwise the purpose for guidelines and standards is not readily apparent. I am of the opinion that many who do not address the heart issues of their children's behavior either are authoritarian and just demand obedience for obedience sake, or they cannot justify their own standards or rules Biblically or logically, and simply don't have a "why" to explain. Yes, they should obey, but you have to teach them how to develop their own standards.

I am not advocating a "wild oats" period, I am saying that if you teach your children and allow them the freedom to understand why you make certain demands, the chances of the need for such a period in their life should be less. Some of the kids that I knew who left home and went far afield were from homes with strong standards, that only takes you so far. No guarantees with anything, they are after all an individual person who must make life choices on their own, the goal is to prepare them to know how to make decisions biblically, and to think through the consequenses of their behavior and determine the right course. It may not always be what you would choose, but it is better than a rebellion from your positions merely because they can, and because you have never given them the justification for your opinions and standards.

 

Now that is a scary question. To be honest, I can post all that opinion about raising kids, but why listen to me. I haven't turned out any "finished" product. My pastor turns down requests to speak about raising kids, says he doesn't yet feel qualified, and his oldest is a freshman at BJ this year!

At 3 and 5, my two little ones are in most cases still in the "do it because I said so" category. Hallie is starting to do better with explanation for some things, and we do attempt to guide her on a few things, but getting simple obedience at this point is the primary goal. Of course, my mother thinks its funny that we get some of the same behavior she remembers. Her quote is one borrowed from Bill Cosby "Having trouble are you son?"

We also are really trying hard to avoid a standards based measurement of spirituality with our kids. It can be tough when they still don't understand that the rules at school are there simply because you have to have rules, not necessarily a judgement on right or wrong. They see everything as a stronger or weaker standard, (an argument between you and your college buddy I have witnessed many times) and it can be difficult for them to distinguish what is preference, and what is actually a right or wrong issue.

My cousins and I were able to make choices, and learn from the consequences, good or bad, in many cases. Our parents had the good sense to trust that the training we had gotten would help us not stray too far, and that we would learn and grow through the experience, rather than attempting to dictate exactly how we should respond to various situations once we were starting to become more independent. I think the foundation must have been good, since none of us has dropped off the deep end, (execpt maybe for the one who is going neo )

 

Yeah? I thought he was just trying to be kool! I like challenging kool with straight so that it's un-kool. For me, humor is uncooling kool.

i be kool
cause i skip skool
i smoke dope
i break da rule
dat's no joke

Suppose I'm just not impressed by kool.

 

It's not about teaching rules but it is all about learning submission--my will submitted to God's will.

 

Many times it's not the knowing but it's the will, the volition. Conformity is often mistaken in IFB kids for convictions. Like the Puritans, we fail to see the role of the Holy Spirit and do not consider the role of the individual's volition.

What do yu think?

 

Absolutely

I even tell my 5 year old, what you do matters, but the attitude is the most important thing. Obeying me with a horrible attitude is not really obedience. Will has a lot to do with it with a 3 and 5 year old. And both being unregenerate at this point, the Holy Spirit doesn't help much

I am very good at agreeing with the scriptures when it comes to intellectual assent to a specific principle or application, its when 2 days after the sermon, and you end up in a real life scenario that requires you to put the Bible into practice in your life that is difficult and requires serious willpower and prayer.

This leads to another question or two.
How do you view the balance between the role of the Holy Spirit and an individual's volition. How much of progressive sanctification is our cooperation, and how much is God's work?

How do you develop in your children a personal relationship with God to the point where the Spirit is effecting genuine heart change in their lives, not just mere compliance in order to stay under the radar.

 

Absolutely

[snip]

This leads to another question or two.
How do you view the balance between the role of the Holy Spirit and an individual's volition. How much of progressive sanctification is our cooperation, and how much is God's work?

How do you develop in your children a personal relationship with God to the point where the Spirit is effecting genuine heart change in their lives, not just mere compliance in order to stay under the radar. </font>[/QUOTE]This is a mystery that no one can answer. I believe in the absolute sovereignty of God and the volition of man. Man must submit but God brings him to submission. Discipline, rules, people (Eph. 4:11-15), etc. do have a place in sanctification but I don’t know that we can precisely define the roles. The individual plays a role (see the put-offs/put-ons of Ephesians 4) but it is the Holy Spirit that does the work in the heart to even desire right doing (Eph. 2:10 & Phil. 2:13). I can’t explain it but I believe it.

The problem is that we take one aspect and emphasize it to the neglect or even exclusion of the other factors. Balance, IMHO, is the key. One of the most neglected aspects of modern child rearing, IMHO, is accountability. Children are not being held responsible for their behavior. This makes for miserable and wretched adulthood. There is, I believe, a transference from being held responsible for small things to one’s accountability and responsibility toward God.

Contrary to the popular misinterpretation of Proverbs 22:6, there is no guarantee that one can assure that a child will be turned to God by manipulating his environment. Such views are almost a Christianization of utopian socialist expectations. We ought not be so naïve. We may influence a child toward the good but there is still the sticky matter of his own depraved volition. We are limited to nurture and admonition.

So, where does that leave us?

 

That is a good description for where that leaves us.

I agree wholeheartedly with your post. Belief that God's Spirit does the work of sanctification, yet man has clearly been given the responsibility defined in Paul's treatise on the old/new man to actively participate in the pursuit of holiness. It is a scary place as a parent where I am now, to have a child who could probably lead a person to Christ with the intellectual grasp she has of the Gospel message, yet not yet seeing her own depravity, and not fully understanding the concept of the free gift of Salvation. I am not pushing too hard, and the discussions are fascinating, still, I have to wait for the illumination of the Spirit. I could get her to pray a prayer, I am certain of that, but she really does not understand.

The work of sanctification can be the same way. I could and do get her to obey rules, but the actual change of her heart to turn from sin and embrace Spirit directed living cannot come from me, it has to be a work of the Spirit in combination with her submission to that leading.

And yes, Prov. 22:6 is often taken as a promise when you really need look no further than its genre. It is after all a proverb, a statement that is generally true.

I have found at least 2 helpful practical books that help with how to actually go about as you refer to it "nurture and admonition"
"Shepherding a Child's Heart" by Ted Tripp and
"Changed into His Image" by Jim Berg

The Berg book was especially helpful to me personally, and the Tripp book is more geared directly toward Child-rearing.

Kinda scary when you think about it. And drives you right to your knees. I don't wonder why my parents told me every 5 minutes they were praying for me. And makes me grateful for 2 sets of grandparents doing the same for my kids.

 

Having a little trouble are you son?

 

Anyone know how Pensecola has fared with Ivan?

Andy