Covington Theological Seminary ??

gb93433 · Jan 7, 2005

When you think about the primary requirement to be called graduate education it must have a research element. A number of universities require prior work experience in the field to even be considered as an applicant. Many require a paper or more to be published. Then the dissertation.

UZThD · Jan 8, 2005

Originally posted by Broadus:
[QB] Poodle78,

I certainly do not intend to offend, but doing a doctorate in a year at 15-20 hours per week? That seems a bit quick.

===

Unlike some pastors I know Broadus, you do not hyperbolize (if this is an example of your speech).

A year is indeed veerrryyy, veerrryyyy quick.

I also do not wish to offend. So, I'll qualify my remarks to what I, MYSELF, would or would not do.

These are MY OWN reasons and if they make absolutely no sense to others, then others have the obligation to make choices by whatever reasoning makes sense to them.

As for me, I , for three reasons, would never enter a doctoral program which could be done in a year.

I. "A Good Reputation With Outsiders" 1 Tim 3:7

My assumption is that the reputation expected of elders is also expected of church workers in general.

It is easy, but time consuming, to lay out the data that no regionally accredited, nationally accredited, including the very conservative TRACS, or foreign GAAP equivalent of RA allows a doctoral degree to be earned in one year.But should Christians care what these accreditors require?

IMO yes!

For 35 years I taught public secondary school. My Calif Standard Credential in English required five years of full-time study . Were I to walk into the English Dept meeting and say , "Hi, my name is Bill, and while you all took five years to get your credential, I did mine in just 1/5 of the time." Well, they would horse laugh at me.

They would know that it couldn't really be done. It should not be done either because a person just cannot learn the subjects involved in only one year of study. The kids I taught did not deserve a teacher who tried to learn in 1/5 of the expected time what it takes to teach.

The same is true of my Oregon Special Ed credential which took a 6th year of study to get. If in a meeting of Spec Ed teachers I said, "Hey, I got my credential in one year while you all took six years," they all would laugh at me too.

Moreover, they would ask, "Hey, how does doing only 1/6 of the work and spending only 1/6 of the time demonstrate your desire to teach"? Is your desire only 1/6 of ours, only 1/6 of what it really should be?"

I frequent a secular distance learning discussion board. The regulars know me well. There I've posted that I began my Unizul doctoral studies after finishing a USA sort of ThM which is four years of full time grad study, two languages, and thesis. The UZ ThD will be awarded in May, 05-- 37 months after I began it.

But had I come on that secular discussion board and announced that I got my doc in just one year, they there all would laugh too. They would say to ME, "What, I spent FOUR years getting my doc, devoting myself to the study of History, because I love my subject, and YOU call yourself a doc after studying your subject, following your God's direction, you claim, in just one year? To 'serve' the subject of History AT THE DOC level takes FOUR years, but to serve AT THE DOC level your God, your Subject takes just ONE year???"

Of course I ought to try to follow what I think God wants for me, not what all the accreditors, or faculties of teachers, or that secular discussion board expect of me. I must please God, not them.

But I will not by taking shorter, easier routes in grad studies allow my choices to suggest to any of these that my God deserves less academic rigor or my love for Him is not up to the difficult task of experiencing what normally is expected to earn a doctoral degree IF He tells me to get such a degree!! As I say, this is MY REASONING, let others do as they see fit.

But as for me, I want my doctorate to be the equivalent in DURATION and in RIGOR to that which is normally expected because I want my study of my God which is done for my God to be of "good repute to those outside."

II. "Devote yourself" (1 Tim 4:15)

A bit of exegesis will show how very much Timothy's mentor was requiring of him in this passage.

Of course, Paul was not mandating doctoral work. But if God does wish it for ME, why would I suppose that He wants it to be less in rigor and duration than what normally is expected?

This follows what is said above. While by NO means shall it be assumed that one must do doc studies as a condition of knowing God, and while it is true that academic learning is not a necessary correlate to spirituality, IF it is God's will that I pursue advanced academic degrees in order to serve Him, then, IMO it follows that I should choose a program that is very rigorous ---that is "advanced."

God deserves that, and that is how I "give myself" to it.

III. "He must...he must...he must... they must...they must...must... ." ( 1 Tim 3: 2-12)

Obviously this text does not mention doc studies. But note the principle: ALL applicants for these offices MUST have certain minimal qualifications!

The pastor or deacon should not be violent. He (or she) should not be a drunkard or a novice or be untested.

Imagine how the applicants for service in Ephesus would then feel if in his instructions to Titus over in Crete Paul wrote, "Yes, ordain that drunkard, ordain that fighter, ordain that novice." They would say, "Why are these brethren getting for much less what is required of us ?"

I just cannot imagine the Cretan elders and deacons saying to the Ephesians , "Ha, ha, I got my eldership or my deaconship with 1/5 of what was expected of you."

I would hope that the Cretans would want to do what their brethren in Ephesus do and would want the same criteria applied to them as are elsewhere applied! I would hope the Cretans would not look for the shortest, easiest route.Of course this refers to Elder Jones or to Deacon Smith not to Dr. Jones or Smith.

But IMO the principle the same! As for me, I would not choose a doctoral program at Unizul that I could finish in 1/3 or 1/4 or 1/5 of the time which it takes my good brethren in regionally accredited or ATS accredited or TRACS accredited or in other foreign GAAP schools .

These good brethren are giving up much and are laboring in their studies long and hard. I want to be like them.

Therefore, I would not do a one year doc because (1) I want the respect of the academe outside, and (2) my subject at the level of doc studies deserves at least what secular subjects do, and (3) I want to emulate my good, hard working brethren who earned or are earning their docs in three or more years.

[ January 08, 2005, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: UZThD ]
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Broadus · Jan 8, 2005

UZThD,

I fully agree with what you've stated. There appears to be a desire among too many Christian ministers to possess certain credentials without undergoing the proper rigor to obtain them.

From what I've seen, proud possessors and promoters of such degrees hide behind the skirt of "we're not letting secularists certify our training." If they really believe that, then require the work that would normally be required for that degree. This appears to be what Whitefield Theological Seminary ( http://www.whitefield.edu ) does.

Most of the other non-accredited institutions require remarkably less to obtain their degrees than accredited institutions do. As I said in a previous post, one of the reasons our family moved to Louisville to study there was that I did not want to look back on degrees in which I poured time, effort, and money and then regret the whole process. To enter the SBTS PhD program, I had to have studied biblical Hebrew and Greek, as well as obtained reading facility in two academic languages. In my case, that was Latin and German. Then came the rigors of seminars and colloquia, comprehensive exams, and the writing and defending of my dissertation---about four years worth of work.

Was that necessary to continue as a Baptist pastor? Of course not. It was necessary, however, to have the type of ministry I believe God would have me do.

I think that one of our great problems in our Christian culture is a demeaning of scholarship and intellectual rigor. We reduce Christianity to "Get saved, sinner!" and we want to be called "Doctor" in order to validate our exhortation.

Again, most of these non-accredited Bible schools should be giving diplomas in Christian studies for what they do. That would be well and good. Doing so, however, would run them out of business. People want recognizable degrees.

Unfortunately, many well-meaning students are duped into thinking that their earning these degrees means that they've done what is commonly expected. They endorse the education they've received because they have nothing else to use as a touchstone.

Oh, well, enough of my ramblings. If you ever trek across the nation to upstate SC, Bill [UZThD], pay me a visit. I perceive a kindred spirit. BTW, congratulations on the upcoming conferring of your degree.

Bill

UZThD · Jan 8, 2005

Bill

For uninformed readers, it should forthrightly be pointed out that Unizul, as do also many accredited foreign schools in Europe and Australia , allows one with an MA to enter and complete the doctorate wholly by research, not classwork-- if the applicant is otherwise qualified.

That makes my ThD program different than American PhDs/ThDs in Theology which require both coursework and dissertation and, generally the prereq of an Mdiv or even a ThM.

In an effort to more standardize my own doc studies, I entered with the ThM, not just the MA or Mdiv, and further opted to have an informal reader , a prof of Bible in an RA school, with a USA PhD (from Dallas Theological Seminary ) to provide feedback , from the USA perspective ,that my research fell into the perimeters of regional accreditational expectations. IMO though, the profs from several South African public universities were individually and jointly quite qualified to evaluate whether or not my research was done rigorously and made a contribution to the area studied.

Nevertheless, my point is that I felt that my subject deserved, and my God desired ,that I do genuinely doctoral level work IF I expected to earn a doctorate.

Bill, I certainly will visit you if in the area ; the invitation is also for you to visit me if you ever come to the Northwest (God's country )

Bill

Broadus · Jan 8, 2005

Bill,

You are quite right in the different models for academic, research doctoral work (as opposed to "professional" doctorates, such as the DMin). What is often called the "European" model is comprised of extensive research culminating with the writing of the dissertation, while the "American" comprises coursework and dissertation. Each has its advantage, I suppose. The American doctorate, IMO, allows one to be broader in one's preparation, while the European model seems to allow one to focus with more precision and depth upon one's research. Both require rigorous effort and, even more importantly, steadfast persistence. Many drop out of doctoral programs simply because they tire of the process. There are many with "PhD (ABD)" [all but dissertation] on their resume.

Most non-accredited PhD or ThD programs require neither rigorous effort or steadfast persistence, and I think that is the point that we have each sought to make. Because some who hold them pastor large churches somehow is supposed to give credibility to the institution.

Blessings,
Bill

paidagogos · Jan 8, 2005

Originally posted by Broadus:
Poodle78,

I certainly do not intend to offend, but doing a doctorate in a year at 15-20 hours per week? That seems a bit quick.

One of the problems I have with certain non-accredited (or accredited by non-certified agencies) institutions is that the person in the pew often thinks his minister's degree is more than it really is. I would be more comfortable if Andersonville and Covington offered biblical studies diplomas instead of master and doctoral degrees. Their requirements are really much, much less than what one typically does in an accredited institution.

Bill
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Broadus, you are right on target. People learn something useful at both Covington and Andersonville but the rigor is lacking. It would be better to give a Bible institute diploma. Everyone doesn’t need to be called doctor.

I know graduates of both schools who are ill-educated. One acquaintance, a professor at one of the schools, wrestles with the Queen's English. A degree from either has no quality assurance even though a smart, motivated student can learn much—which he could probably do as well on his own.

I believe good, sincere people operate these schools but there's runaway academic inflation at both places.

paidagogos · Jan 8, 2005

Originally posted by Broadus:
Bill,

You are quite right in the different models for academic, research doctoral work (as opposed to "professional" doctorates, such as the DMin). What is often called the "European" model is comprised of extensive research culminating with the writing of the dissertation, while the "American" comprises coursework and dissertation. Each has its advantage, I suppose. The American doctorate, IMO, allows one to be broader in one's preparation, while the European model seems to allow one to focus with more precision and depth upon one's research. Both require rigorous effort and, even more importantly, steadfast persistence. Many drop out of doctoral programs simply because they tire of the process. There are many with "PhD (ABD)" [all but dissertation] on their resume.

Most non-accredited PhD or ThD programs require neither rigorous effort or steadfast persistence, and I think that is the point that we have each sought to make. Because some who hold them pastor large churches somehow is supposed to give credibility to the institution.

Blessings,
Bill
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Most DE schools professing a research model (i.e the European Model) miss the concept of a research degree by a mile. A research degree is more than the compilation of information. It involves contributing to the body of knowledge, not just collecting and rehashing what is already known. In the sciences, it is doing actual laboratory research on a problem. It is the student’s responsibility to acquire, either by classes or reading, the knowledge and technical skills that he needs to solve the problem.

Furthermore, most DE schools are lean on their testing and quality demands. Even a prospectus for the dissertation should be rigorous and demanding. Also, plan on a few rewrites of the dissertation. Most DE schools, I believe, have dispensed with qualifying exams, both written and oral, even though some require an oral defense of the dissertation and others may not.

paidagogos · Jan 8, 2005

Originally posted by Broadus:
Bill,

You are quite right in the different models for academic, research doctoral work (as opposed to "professional" doctorates, such as the DMin). What is often called the "European" model is comprised of extensive research culminating with the writing of the dissertation, while the "American" comprises coursework and dissertation. Each has its advantage, I suppose. The American doctorate, IMO, allows one to be broader in one's preparation, while the European model seems to allow one to focus with more precision and depth upon one's research. Both require rigorous effort and, even more importantly, steadfast persistence. Many drop out of doctoral programs simply because they tire of the process. There are many with "PhD (ABD)" [all but dissertation] on their resume.

Most non-accredited PhD or ThD programs require neither rigorous effort or steadfast persistence, and I think that is the point that we have each sought to make. Because some who hold them pastor large churches somehow is supposed to give credibility to the institution.

Blessings,
Bill
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Please allow an addendum. The major American research universities do offer research doctorates in the sciences. Coursework may be minimal. In humanities including religion, it is more coursework.

paidagogos · Jan 8, 2005

Originally posted by Broadus:
UZThD,

I fully agree with what you've stated. There appears to be a desire among too many Christian ministers to possess certain credentials without undergoing the proper rigor to obtain them.

From what I've seen, proud possessors and promoters of such degrees hide behind the skirt of "we're not letting secularists certify our training." If they really believe that, then require the work that would normally be required for that degree. This appears to be what Whitefield Theological Seminary ( http://www.whitefield.edu ) does.

Most of the other non-accredited institutions require remarkably less to obtain their degrees than accredited institutions do. As I said in a previous post, one of the reasons our family moved to Louisville to study there was that I did not want to look back on degrees in which I poured time, effort, and money and then regret the whole process. To enter the SBTS PhD program, I had to have studied biblical Hebrew and Greek, as well as obtained reading facility in two academic languages. In my case, that was Latin and German. Then came the rigors of seminars and colloquia, comprehensive exams, and the writing and defending of my dissertation---about four years worth of work.

Was that necessary to continue as a Baptist pastor? Of course not. It was necessary, however, to have the type of ministry I believe God would have me do.

I think that one of our great problems in our Christian culture is a demeaning of scholarship and intellectual rigor. We reduce Christianity to "Get saved, sinner!" and we want to be called "Doctor" in order to validate our exhortation.

Again, most of these non-accredited Bible schools should be giving diplomas in Christian studies for what they do. That would be well and good. Doing so, however, would run them out of business. People want recognizable degrees.

Unfortunately, many well-meaning students are duped into thinking that their earning these degrees means that they've done what is commonly expected. They endorse the education they've received because they have nothing else to use as a touchstone.

Oh, well, enough of my ramblings. If you ever trek across the nation to upstate SC, Bill [UZThD], pay me a visit. I perceive a kindred spirit. BTW, congratulations on the upcoming conferring of your degree.

Bill
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What you say is generally accurate and true. Whitefield is probably one of the exceptions. They are rigorous and demanding. They produce high-quality grads (Gentry, Grant, Sproul, & others).

Please allow me three quick points:
1. There is a need for a degree qualifying process for students who face unfortunate circumstances. For example, one student was Ph.D. (ABD) because his major prof died. Others have comparable achievement without the formal education degree process (e.g. Bucky Fuller).
2. One reason against accreditation is that RA's go slow on really innovative programs. Accreditation does cramp your style and creativity sometimes. (I'm a maverick. Can't you tell.)
3. The UNIZUL and UNISA models fascinate me. They are cutting edge DE. This could be the future of American DE if we loosened up our constipated ideas. However, the RA’s are not ready just yet to stretch this far. So, forget accreditation for awhile.

paidagogos · Jan 9, 2005

Originally posted by poodle78:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jabbezzz:
No earned doctorate is completely above board without requiring a dissertation, final project or thesis of some kind. This is inherent in the doctoral process.
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Colorado Technical University offers the PhD with no dissertation or final project. They require 6 smaller projects over the course of 3 years.

There may be others. </font>[/QUOTE]Residency requirement? Some accredited DE, as well as resident, schools have taken the project approach for the professional doctorates. Usaully the Ph.D. is considered academic and requires a dissertation.

Times shore are achanging!

gb93433 · Jan 9, 2005

Originally posted by paidagogos:

Times shore are achanging!
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For the worse, promoting laziness.

gb93433 · Jan 9, 2005

Originally posted by paidagogos:

Others have comparable achievement without the formal education degree process (e.g. Bucky Fuller).

Click to expand...

RICHARD BUCKMINSTER FULLER; born in Milton, Massachusetts, July 12,1895,son of Richard Buckminster and Caroline Wolcott (Andrews) Fuller

Attended Milton Academy, (Massachusetts) 1904-13; Harvard 1913-15; U.S. Naval Academy, Annapolis, Maryland (spec.) 1917

Married Anne Hewlett, July 12,1917 at Rock Hall, Lawrence, Long Island, New York

Children: Alexandra Willets (dec.); Allegra (Fuller Snyder);
Grandchildren; Alexandra, Jaime

CHRONOLOGY OF PAST AND PRESENT PRIME FUNCTIONS

1914-15 Apprentice machine fitter, RICHARDS, ATKINSON & HASERICK; Boston, importers of cotton mill machinery

1915-17 Various apprentice jobs, ARMOUR & COMPANY, New York City

1917-19 Ensign U.S.N.R. to Lieutenant U.S.N. UNITED STATES NAVY, World War I

1919-21 Assistant Export Manager, ARMOUR & COMPANY

1922 National Account Sales Manager, KELLY- SPRINGFIELD TRUCK COMPANY

1922-27 President, STOCKADE BUILDING SYSTEM, 240 Building Operations

1927-32 President, 4D COMPANY; Chicago, Illinois

1930-32 Editor, Publisher, SHELTER MAGAZINE

1930-31 Assistant to Director of Research, PIERCE FOUNDATIONAMERICAN RADIATOR STANDARD SANITARY MANUFACTURING COMPANY; produced mass-production kitchen and bathroom back to back.

1932-36 Director and Chief Engineer, DYMAXION CORPORATION; Bridgeport, Connecticut; produced 3 Dymaxion Cars

1936-38 Assistant to Director, Research and Development, PHELPS DODGE CORPORATION

1938-40 Science and Technology Consultant, FORTUNE MAGAZINE

1940-50 Vice President, Chief Engineer, DYMAXION COMPANY, INC.; Delaware Associated with Butler Manufacturing Company; produced Dymaxion Dwelling Unit

1942-44 Chief Mechanical Engineer, U.S. BOARD OF ECONOMIC WARFARE, World War II

1944 Special Assistant to Deputy Director, U.S. FOREIGN ECONOMIC ADMINISTRATION

1944-46 Chairman of Board, Chief Engineer, DYMAXION DWELLING MACHINE CORPORATION (later) Fuller Houses, BEECH AIRCRAFT COMPANY; Wichita, Kansas

1946-54 Chairman, Board of Trustees, FULLER RESEARCH FOUNDATION; Wichita, Kansas

1949- President, GEODESICS, INC.; Forest Hills, New York

1954-59 President, SYNERGETICS, INC.; Raleigh, North Carolina

1957- President, PLYDOMES, INC.; Des Moines, Iowa

1959-68 Research Professor, Design Science Exploration, Director of Inventory of World Resources, Human Trends and Needs, Founder, Director of World Game, Director of Design Science Decade of International Union of Architects,SOUTHERN ILLINOIS UNIVERSITY

1959- Chairman of the Board, TETRAHELIX CORPORATION; Hamilton, Ohio

1962-63 Charles Eliot Norton Professor of Poetry, HARVARD UNIVERSITY

1965-67 The Architect of U.S. Pavilion at &;Expo '67' Montreal World's Fair

1967- President, TRITON FOUNDATION and Architect in production of the Tetrahedronal Floating City for U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT

1968-70 Architect in collaboration with T. C. Howard of SYNERGETICS, INC., of the Tri-Centennial Pavilion of South Carolina at Greenfield, South Carolina

1968 University Professor, SOUTHERN ILLINOIS UNIVERSITY

1969 Architect, Samuel Beckett Theater, St. Peters College, OXFORD UNIVERSITY; Oxford, England

1969-70 Architect, geodesic auditorium, KFAR MENA CHEM KIBBUTZ, Israel; WORLD GAME seminars at Yale University and New York Studio School

1971 Chief Architect, Old Man River Project (Environmental Domed City), East St. Louis, Illinois; Architect, Project Toronto, Toronto, Canada; Architect, Religious Center at Southern Illinois University, Edwardsville, Illinois; Architect, design of St. Peters Theatre, London, England

1972 World Fellow in Residence for the Consortium of the University of Pennsylvania, Bryan Mawr, Haverford and Swarthmore Colleges and the University City Science Center, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; Editor-at-Large, World Magazine; Consultant, DESIGN SCIENCE INSTITUTE; Distinguished University Professor, Southern Illinois University, Carbondale and Edwardsville, Illinois

1973 Continued as World Fellow in Residence, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; Continued as Distinguished University Professor, Southern Illinois University; Chief Architect, Completion of the Design for the International Airports at New Delhi, Bombay, and Madras, India; Author of SYNERGETICS: EXPLORATIONS IN THE GEOMETRY OF THINKING (published 1975); Consultant, DESIGN SCIENCE INSTITUTE

1974 Continued as World Fellow in Residence, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; Continued as Distinguished University Professor, Southern Illinois University; Consultant, DESIGN SCIENCE INSTITUTE; Consultant to Architects Team 3 (designing $200 million Penang Urban Center), Penang, Malaysia

1975 Continued as World Fellow in Residence, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; Continued as Consultant to Architects Team 3, Penang, Malaysia; Appointed University Professor Emeritus, Southern Illinois University, Carbondale and Edwardsville, Illinois; Appointed University Professor Emeritus, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; Member of Advisory Council on International Programs, Bryan Mawr College, Bryan Mawr, Pennsylvania; Member of Advisory Committee, WINDWORKS, Mukwonago, Wisconsin; Tutor in Design Science, INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY COLLEGE, Los Angeles, California; International President, WORLD SOCIETY FOR EKISTICS

1976 Conceived and designed "Synergetics" exhibit for the opening of the Smithsonian/Cooper;Hewitt Museum of Design; author, artist and designer of a limited edition lithograph; "Tetrascroll" author and designer of a limited edition of silk-screens "Synergetics Poster Series" conceived and designed a limited edition of metal sculpture" Jitterbug; author of AND IT CAME TO PASS ;NOT TO STAY; continued as World Fellow in Residence, University City Science Center, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; continued as University Professor Emeritus at Southern Illinois University, Carbondale and Edwardsville, Illinois; continued as University Professor Emeritus, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; continued as consultant to Architects Team 3, Penang, Malaysia; continued as tutor in Design Science, International College, Los Angeles, California; continued as International President, World Society for Ekistics

1977 Designed and developed two prototype geodesic domes "Pinecone Dome" and "Fly's Eye Dome" lecturer, Far Eastern tour sponsored by the U.S. State Department/United States Information Agency; continued as World Fellow in Residence, University City Science Center, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania;continued as University Professor Emeritus, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; continued as University Professor Emeritus, Southern Illinois University, Carbondale and Edwardsville, Illinois; continued as consultant to Architects Team 3, Penang, Malaysia; tutor in Design Science, International College, Los Angeles, California; completed term as International President, World Society for Ekistics

1978 Continued as World Fellow in Residence, University City Science Center, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; continued as University Professor Emeritus, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; continued as University Professor Emeritus, Southern Illinois University, Carbondale and Edwardsville, Illinois; Scholar in Residence, University of Massachusetts, Amherst, Massachusetts; tutor in Design Science, International College, Los Angeles, California; continued as senior partner, Fuller & Sadao PC; continued as consultant, Architects Team 3, Penang, Malaysia

1979 Continued as World Fellow in Residence, University City Science Center, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; continued as University Professor Emeritus, Southern Illinois University, Edwardsville and Carbondale, Illinois; continued as University Professor Emeritus, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; continued as Tutor in Design Science, International College, Los Angeles, California; continued as senior partner, Fuller & Sadao PC, Long Island City, New York; Chairman of the Board, R. Buckminster Fuller Sadao & Zung Architects, Inc., Cleveland, Ohio; senior partner, Buckminster Fuller Associates, London, England; author, SYNERGETICS 2: FURTHER EXPLORATIONS IN THE GEOMETRY OF THINKING, published by Macmillan; author, R. BUCKMINSTER FULLER ON EDUCATION, published by University of Massachusetts Press; continued as consultant, Architects Team 3, Penang, Malaysia

1980 Continued as World Fellow in Residence, University City Science Center, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; continued as University Professor Emeritus, Southern Illinois University, Edwardsville and Carbondale, Illinois; continued as University Professor Emeritus, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; continued as senior partner, Fuller & Sadao PC; continued as Chairman of the Board, R. Buckminster Fuller Sadao & Zung Architects, Inc.; continued as senior partner, Buckminster Fuller Associates; continued as Tutor in Design Science, International College; continued as consultant, Architects Team 3, Penang, Malaysia; author, CRITICAL PATH, to be published winter 1980-81 by St. Martin's Press

1981 Continued as World Fellow in Residence, University City Science Center, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; University Professor Emeritus, Southern Illinois University, Edwardsville and Carbondale, Illinois; University Professor Emeritus, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; continued as Senior Partner, Fuller & Sadao PC; continued as Chairman of the Board, R. Buckminster Fuller, Sadao & Zung Architects, Inc.; continued as Senior Partner, Buckminster Fuller Associates; continued as Consultant, Team 3 International; Chairman, Fuller-Patterson Corporation and Buckminster Fuller Research and Development Park; author, GRUNCH OF GIANTS to be published winter 1982-3 by St. Martin's Press

1982 Continued as World Fellow in Residence, University City Science Center, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; University Professor Emeritus, Southern Illinois University, Edwardsville and Carbondale, Illinois; University Professor Emeritus, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; continued as Senior Partner, Fuller & Sadso PC; continued as Chairman of the Board, R. Buckminster Fuller, Sadao & Zung Architects Inc.; continued as Senior Partner, Buckminster Fuller Associates; continued as Consultant, Team 3 International; continued as Chairman, Fuller Patterson Corporation and Buckminster Fuller Research and Development Park; designed and developed tensional Dymaxion Hanging Bookshelf; designed and developed deresonated Tensegrity dome; author, INVENTIONS (working title) to be published 1983 by St. Martin's Press; designed and developed steel strap model of spherical to planar triangular transformation; designed BigMap, basketball-court-sized Dymaxion projection displayed to U.S. Congress

1983 Continued as World Fellow in Residence, University City Science Center, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; University Professor Emeritus, Southern Illinois University, Edwardsville and Carbondale, Illinois; University Professor Emeritus, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; continued as Senior Partner, Fuller & Sadao PC; continued as Chairman of the Board, R. Buckminster Fuller, Sadao & Zung Architects Inc.; continued as Senior Partner, Buckminster Fuller Associates; continued as Consultant, Team 3 International; continued as Chairman, Fuller-Patterson Corporation and Buckminster Fuller Research and Development Park.

source: http://www.bfi.org/basic_biography.htm

Lanny · Jan 18, 2005

I have conducted my study through three professional institutions including Covington, and currently hold a Master of Ministry degree. Through this study experience, I have had the "pleasure" of classroom situations where the prof spent 90% of his time expounding his own opinion, and 10% actually applying the text.

I have to say that absorption is the responsibility of the student, and for me, I gained tremendous benefit from Covington's study structure. With Covington, you will not go through one class without having literally examined every page of your text in order to complete the assignments.

Again, this is a matter of self-discipline. For me, I gained, and retained tremendously through Covington's study program.

If you are concerned with accreditation for your resume's sake (which is not necessarily unwise), then perhaps Covington is not for you. Otherwise, when I compare some of the other institution's benefits (or lack of) versus the cost, and the text content coverage required by Covington, I will recommend Covington any ol' day!

poodle78 · Jan 18, 2005

Lanny,
I couldn't agree with you more. I think that the problem some have with our alma mater is not so much the individual courses required as much as it is that they perceive there are too few requirements. I came in from working 8 hours in a factory and sat down at my books and computer for another 3-4 hours and most all day on Saturday. I really enjoyed the studying and learning. It made me feel like I was back at Furman 25 years ago!

As much as I enjoyed learning, I enjoyed meeting the staff and administration at graduation so much more. They seem to really care about each student and about Covington itself. I have recommended Covington and probably will again.

cbailey · Jan 20, 2005

One can easily get caught up in pretentious attitudes of because I went to a big name seminary, I am greater than thou. I went to NOBTS, LRS and two state universities. My take is that if you learned and developed as God wanted you to and prepared for your calling, then that is all that matters. Some will always look down there noses in a pharisee-ical manner at those who attained a theological education through non traditional means. I know some pastors and DOMS who recieved degrees from Covington and their understanding of biblical doctrine as well as their character is impeccable. I am pursuing a Phd from a state univ and a DMIN from Andersonville. Could I have chosen a better school for theological educ? Well that is relative. Most importantly is your heart right with God and are you doing what God has called you to do. Praise God for Godly men from Covington and wherever else who serve him faithfully everyday.

wopik · Jan 29, 2005

theological seminaries.

they are also called theological cemetaries: cause that's where the truth is buried.

Broadus · Jan 29, 2005

Originally posted by wopik:
theological seminaries.

they are also called theological cemetaries: cause that's where the truth is buried.
Click to expand...

There's nothing quite like painting with a broad brush.

Bill

Martin · Jan 30, 2005

"One can easily get caught up in pretentious attitudes of because I went to a big name seminary"

==I think this can be true, but not that often. I think what alot of people focus on is the accrediation issue and that is important (mainly with the rise of distance/online education). Its not so much that "I am better than...because I went to a big name seminary" as much as it is about getting a quality education. Sure Andersonville, and I assume Covington, deliever good Bible studies. However do they cover the scholarly issues (Synoptic Problem, Backgrounds, etc). That is my concern that people who graduate from these schools do so with a good knowledge of Scripture (and that is a good thing) however they don't have the detailed knowledge (greek, hebrew, etc) that will be needed when confronting a post-modernistic, Biblically ignorant culture. What would these people say to someone who says to them, "well Paul was just forming his own religion"? To answer those type of questions it helps to know the Scriptures well, but also to know something of the greek and backgrounds. So it is not about "I am better", rather it is about what schools give the higher quality of education.

"My take is that if you learned and developed as God wanted you to and prepared for your calling, then that is all that matters."

==I fully agree, and if God has called someone to attend a Covington, Andersonville, or Bob Jones that is great! They will get a good Bible education. However their degree will be limited in its usefulness (ie...most colleges, seminaries, will not acknowledge a unaccredited Masters/Doctorate degree.) and they will have not recieve the kind of detailed study that one would get at a Southeastern, Dallas, or Liberty.

"Some will always look down there noses in a pharisee-ical manner at those who attained a theological education through non traditional means."

==To be honest, distance education scares some people (usually the older). However studies are on the side of distance education. Studies show that distance students learn just as much, if not more, than their on campus classmates. Why? Probably because distance learning requires the person to study the information for themselves. Facts are hard to ignore, though some will always give it a good shot.

"I know some pastors and DOMS who recieved degrees from Covington and their understanding of biblical doctrine as well as their character is impeccable"

==I fully agree.

" I am pursuing a Phd from a state univ and a DMIN from Andersonville. Could I have chosen a better school for theological educ? Well that is relative."

==Since you will have a PhD from a state university your Andersonville degree is not going to be that big of factor in your employment. However if all you had was the Andersonville degree you would have a hard time getting a job outside of a local church. So its not relative.

Broadus · Jan 30, 2005

I think an additional issue is ethics. Is it ethical to offer a degree which does not meet what is required for certified accreditation? Most non-accredited schools which I have investigated do so, and I contend that is unethical.

Many of these schools are looked down upon because of their academic standards (or lack of them), not because they lack accreditation. BJU, on the other hand, is academically reputable because of their requirements. Of course, even BJU is now seeking accreditation with TRACS.

People will always find a reason to look down upon others schools, whether the institution is accredited or not. Some are look down upon because they are too liberal or too conservative. To me, it boils down to the requirements or expectations of the institution as well as the training of the faculty. One thing that you will find in almost all non-accredited institutions is a faculty in which most, if not all, of the profs have their doctorates from non-accredited institutions. Often, their doctorates will come from the same non-accredited institution at which they teach. They cannot take their students academically where they themselves have not gone.

Many non-accredited institutions are looked down upon because they pretend to be what they are not.

Bill

UZThD · Jan 30, 2005

Originally posted by Lanny: Through this study experience, I have had the "pleasure" of classroom situations where the prof spent 90% of his time expounding his own opinion, and 10% actually applying the text.

I have to say that absorption is the responsibility of the student, and for me, I gained tremendous benefit from Covington's study

===

re 10%/90%

I suppose it depends a lot on the level or subject of study. But in my experience at a grad level the textbook is not generally what is taught in class. The basic concepts of the textbook are to be mastered by the student in preparation for further development by the prof in class.

If a student in a grad program cannot understand the text without teacher explanation, then, perhaps, he is in the wrong program.

If a course is merely reading a textbook, why is a school needed?

The prof is there to see that the student is exposed to a wide array of concepts and learning experiences, and these cannot be confined to a textbook.

However in some substandard schools what is in the textbook may be all the prof knows about the subject. I'd steer clear of such schools.

re :absorption being the student's responsibility.

If it regularly occurs that some students at a particular seminary "unrecognized" by acadame start absorbing to a degree of equality usually required by accredited schools in knowledge and skills acquisition, then , it would follow, that those students could enter and finish doctoral programs in accredited seminaries. Not all successful students in RA doc programs have master's degree from RA schools.

Therefore, a test of "absorbtion" would be to ask an unaccredited seminary how many grads of its master's program go on to enter and finish doctoral programs in accredited schools on the virtue of what they have "absorbed" in the program of that UA school. That is a genuine measure of "absorbtion" and a measure of rigor.

IMO, it is the duty of the UA school to REQUIRE of its students equivalency in rigor with RA , and not the duty of students to make up for that lack of requirement by being "absorbant."

The issue is, IMO, what skills and knowledge are actually being taught to be absorbed not just whether what is being taught is being absorbed.

Again: the issue is NOT for me acxcreditation. That is a subterfuge. The issue is rigor. I happen to believe that studies about and for my God should at least equal the rigor required by secular studies. Therefore, grad degrees in ministry or Bible or Theology should be very substantial and scholarly.

Of course now I'm open to the accusation of pride because I think rigor is Christian.
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