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Dallas Theological Seminary Makes A Horrible Choice!

Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges & Seminaries' started by Martin, Aug 27, 2005.

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  1. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    I guess we jsut ahve to disagree then. Yes, I know this is a terrible situation, and I think the school was stupid for readmitting him, but, lacking criminal action, I don't think a person's school should be required to be girded with the obligation of notifying future employers of such things.

    It puts the school in the role of big brother, and that's rather orwellian. The ultimate fault here lies with the perpetrator himself, not with the school.
     
    #41 Johnv, Aug 30, 2005
  2. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Ah...the Cardinal Bernard Law defense...that worked real well for the Catholics. There is no confidentiality when the patient admits a crime. If you know about someone committing a sexual crime and stay silent, IMO, you are morally responsible for the perpetrators actions.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #42 Joseph_Botwinick, Aug 30, 2005
  3. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    The Catholc church scanario is different. In those cases, it was the intent ot the diocese to circumvent law enforcement. Also, diocese have sole authority over placement of priests. In the OP case, the school has no such authority, nor was there any attempt to circumvent the law. In fact, no law was broken, no cover-up engaged in, and no attempt to circumvent the law attempted.
     
    #43 Johnv, Aug 30, 2005
  4. RandR

    RandR New Member

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    NOTE: I write this without comment. If something sounds like opinion, then I am merely repeating it as told me one with close ties to the seminary.

    The seminary has settled out of court with the guy.

    Some details...
    When the original incident occurred, there was no law in place requiring that the school inform civil authorities. The young man's family did not press charges. Since the offended party didn't press charges, the seminary likelwise attempted to handle the situation "redemptively."

    The administrator who was instrumental in the decisions is now much older and more frail. Part of the decision to settle was to avoid making him face the public embarrassment of the witness stand.
     
    #44 RandR, Aug 30, 2005
  5. Martin

    Martin Active Member

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    go2church,

    You said:
    Even if he was fired they can't give details, only that he was fired. It is a very difficult situation for human resource departments.

    ==The man did not work for DTS, he was a student there. Also I talked to one of my friends who is in HR about this situation and he totally rejected the excuse given by DTS as valid. The man was guilty of molesting children, a crime.

    You said:
    I think we can be pretty sure that the folks at DTS knew what the bible said about the situation.

    ==Then why did they not obey Scripture? Where they putting the "rules of man" above the Law of God? Or were they just neglecting the Law of God? Knowing the Word without obeying it does no good.

    Martin.
     
    #45 Martin, Aug 30, 2005
  6. Martin

    Martin Active Member

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    preachinjesus,

    I am sorry but this post amazed me, so I had to respond:

    You said:
    Every seminary has something in their past that doesn't represent itself or Christ awfully well.

    ==What? I hope I am not reading this correctly? This school allowed a child molester to attend and graduate from their school (knowing what he was)! Not only that they refused to warn churches where this man may work about the dangers. This school, Dallas Theological Seminary, is guilty of helping a criminal (the worst sort). I know of NO eevangelical SEMINARY guilty of such a SIN. Dallas Theological Seminary put how many children at risk? How many children did this monster harm thanks, in part, to DTS?? This is a far different situation than just not doing business well at times or making a bad decision.

    __________________________________

    You said:
    Even ole LU has tons of skeletons in their closet.

    ==Has LU every, and I mean ever, done what DTS has done? NO! DTS has, in effect, harmed children by helping this monster. The Christian community should seek justice here. The people at DTS who knew about this man and did nothing should be fire and charged with a crime.

    _______________________________________

    You said:
    Maybe a measure of grace should be considered before judgment from afar is rendered. Just a thought.

    ==This perverted man is out there molesting(sp?) children (Matt 18:6-10) and we are not to make a judgment? DTS knew about this and did nothing and we are not to make judgment? That is as unBiblical as it can be (1Cor 5:1-13, etc).

    Revelation 21:8
    1Corinthians 6:9-10

    Martin.
     
    #46 Martin, Aug 30, 2005
  7. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    The man was kicked out of DTS.

    If he was innocent, why was he forced out?

    The facts are simple. He wasn't innocent. He was kicked out. He went through counseling. And he should never have been readmitted!
     
    #47 Paul33, Aug 30, 2005
  8. Martin

    Martin Active Member

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    paidagogos,

    You said:
    Firstly, we do not know how much DTS knew or could prove about their perverted student’s behavior. For DTS to release unsubstantiated information about a student or former student carries great legal liability.

    ==They kicked the guy out of the program and then re-admitted him. They knew what he did and they did nothing about it. There is no reason they should have re-admitted the man.

    _____________________________________

    You said:
    Furthermore, certain counseling information is confidential.

    ==The man went through four years of counseling when a victoms father confronted the school. Yet some are still going to doubt that there is solid evidence of this man's guilt. Once again someone else has come forward and this man has now pled guilty. The seminary kicked the man out based on these charges then, foolishly, re-admitted the man.

    ___________________________________________

    You said:
    Dallas is right in that a person can change. If God cannot change a life, then what are we all about? Do you give a person a second chance? Are our sins to be hung around like an albatross our necks forever?

    ==God can change the man, yes. However this type of sin would put a person outside of the ministry forever. There are certain sins that have long term results even after forgivness. This man, btw, went on to commit more crimes/sins. He did not change.
    __________________________________________

    You said:
    Secondly, there are new and unproven theories of liability here. Who can say a seminary is to blame for the behavior of its adult students?

    ==Nobody is saying the seminary is to blame for the man's actions. What they are to blame for it two-fold: (1) Re-admitting the student knowing his past, (2) not warning someone about the dangers before this man was placed with children. Btw, I don't care about human liability. Doing what is Biblically and morally right is more important (Acts 5:29, etc).
    __________________________________

    You said:
    Thirdly, there are charges of cover-up without the presentation of evidence for a cover-up. This is despicable from a Christian standpoint.

    ==What is "despicable" is DTS's not doing anything and some Christians defending DTS. I can't believe anyone would defend the actions of DTS. In fact the only place I have run into anyone even attempting to defend DTS is on this board. Everyone else agrees DTS did wrong.

    _______________________________________________

    You said:
    Such charges come those who presume without proof or evidence. It is the modern mindset to assume wrongdoing whenever we don’t know the whole story. I doubt that anyone on this thread has firsthand, intimate, personal knowledge of the situation. If not, we are playing prosecutor, judge and jury on hearsay.

    ==God is there judge. I assure you my judgment is meaningless and has no results. God's judgment, however, is forever. Also I don't need firsthand experience to know that they had a moral obligation to do something.

    _____________________________________________

    You said:
    I hope that such self-righteous, bigoted Pharisees, who are guilty biased judgment, will be ashamed and embarrassed when they read this.

    ==O, so now because we say that the school has moral responsibility for its actions we are "self-righteous, bigoted Pharisees"? That is the same argument the "homosexual" groups use. Enough said. The Bible never gives us permission to excuse sin.

    _______________________________________

    You said:
    Perhaps, we ought to go back and read “Thou shalt not bear false witness” in a new light. This is not as much about lying as much as false accusations.

    ==What false accusation? The school admitted it allow the man BACK in! The school has admitted it did not warn the churches (etc) about the problem! There are no false accusations here.

    ____________________________________________

    You said:
    It will be, no doubt, from the worst offenders. So, if you don’t want to be identified and embarrassed, keep a low profile. In a dogfight, the bitten dog is always the one who howls.

    ==Cute, but that stuff does not work with me. Nice try though.

    I am not afraid to confront sin (mainly when children, or innocent people, are being hurt).

    Let me ask you a question:

    Do you believe abortion is a sin?

    If so, are you outraged by it?

    Are you angry at the mothers only, or the doctors/hospitals as well?

    and

    Why?
     
    #48 Martin, Aug 30, 2005
  9. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    I ask again, should it be the responsibility of all schools to notify employers of criminal activities of their students?

    Perhaps the better approach is for an employer to be allowed to ask the schools about activity of their applicants. Should it not rest upon the hiring party to have greater responsibility to screen their applicants, instead of it being the school's responsibility to screen an employer's applicants?
     
    #49 Johnv, Aug 30, 2005
  10. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    That is unrealistic when the ones who actually know are covering it up.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #50 Joseph_Botwinick, Aug 30, 2005
  11. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    There was no cover-up here. In fact, there was not even a crime committed. There was an accusation only. I'm really loathe to put schools in the role of policemen or big brother.
     
    #51 Johnv, Aug 30, 2005
  12. Martin

    Martin Active Member

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    GARick,

    May I ask you a question?

    You said:
    I have heard that an attack from the Evil One is a sign that a person, or organization in the case of DTS, is having meaningful impact for God.

    ==Let's, for one moment, ignore the various doctrinal problems at DTS (easy believism, no repentance needed for salvation, etc) and focus on this one issue. The school re-admitted a man that they knew was a child molester. Do you believe that such an action is acceptable? Not only that they gave the man a degree and said nothing further about his past. Is this type of behavior "having a meaningful impact for God" in your opinion?

    I certainly hope not.

    If it were some small issue (business, etc) I could overlook it. Everyone sins, everyone makes mistakes. Fine. However because DTS did nothing (after re-admitting a man they knew molested children) this cannot be overlooked or excused.


    You said:
    My plea is that we be in Spirit-filled prayer for DTS in this time of distress.

    == I pray for the many children this evil man hurt. I pray for them and their families. I pray for the people at DTS. That those guilty of doing nothing will repent and that men of God who will turn that seminary around. I pray that God will save this man who is guilty of these horrible crimes (Rev 21:8).

    Martin.
    ________________________________________
    IN GENERAL:

    I am very disturbed, come to think about it, that I am hearing very little concern for the victims. Alot of concern for this huge school but little for the children this man hurt.

    This whole thing is very, very sad.

    Martin.
     
    #52 Martin, Aug 30, 2005
  13. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    There was no cover-up here. In fact, there was not even a crime committed. There was an accusation only. I'm really loathe to put schools in the role of policemen or big brother. </font>[/QUOTE]No crime? No coverup? Then why the lawsuit and ensuing settlement? Pray tell, John, what exactly did this pervert not do that the seminary knew about and didn't tell the churches he went and worked for?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #53 Joseph_Botwinick, Aug 30, 2005
  14. Martin

    Martin Active Member

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    Gold Dragon:

    You said:
    Assume you were in charge at DTS. How would you handle it if your student admitted to child molestation and repented?

    ==Well there would be no re-admission into the school (let me say that up front). Period. I am aware of the fact, and I strongly believe, that God can/does change/save even the most wicked of people (1Cor 6:9-11). However as a mortal human I have no way of knowing who is honestly repenting and who is faking it just to get back into the school. Therefore, since this is such an extreme sin/crime, I would not allow the student back in. Why? Seminary trains ministers (etc) who have access to children. I could not, in good conscience, all this man to earn a degree at a school I was in charge of. Why not? Because of the chance that he was faking repentence or fell back into the sin.

    I would also make sure the proper police (etc) were notified so the student could be arrested and charged. I would be very pleased if he would call the police himself (see below).


    Beyond that I would agree with the steps you suggested.


    I would have the student:
    1) confess to the victim and victim's family of wrongdoing

    2) confess to his own family the wrongdoing

    3) find a way to give retribution and reconciliation for the wrongs

    4) ensure that his community is supporting him and keeping him accountable

    5) seek counselling

    Martin.
     
    #54 Martin, Aug 30, 2005
  15. Martin

    Martin Active Member

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    Johnv:

    You said:
    I'm curious about something. If an engineering student gets kicked out of engineering school for, say, drunken rowdiness, and later is readmitted, and later is fired from an engineering firm for being drunk on the job, is it the school's fault? Should the school have the obligation to notify the place that hired him that he was kicked out for drunken rowdiness?

    ==This is a totally different issue. I think we have to allow for the fact that even Christians will sin, sometimes badly. So I would not say that the same applies in the above situation. Here we are dealing with a criminal, the most severe type of criminal, which DTS re-admitted into their school.


    You said:
    Sure, the school was stupid to readmit him, but where is there an obligation for them to notify his current employer about such things?

    ==Where is it? I would say it is in the safety of the children. I am sure the seminary is interested in keeping children safe. So the reason DTS did what they did is all the more curious.

    Martin.
     
    #55 Martin, Aug 30, 2005
  16. Martin

    Martin Active Member

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    ==What about keeping children safe from these monsters? What about doing the morally right thing to protect the innocent? DTS knew the situation with this man...they should have done the right thing.

    Martin.
     
    #56 Martin, Aug 30, 2005
  17. Martin

    Martin Active Member

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    RandR:

    Let me just say that my comments here are not directed at you. I am just commenting. Ok?

    ____________________________________


    You said:
    When the original incident occurred, there was no law in place requiring that the school inform civil authorities.

    ==That is no excuse. The seminary knew this man had sinned and commited a horrible/horrible crime. They should have reported him because it was the morally right thing to do.

    You said:
    The young man's family did not press charges. Since the offended party didn't press charges, the seminary likelwise attempted to handle the situation "redemptively."

    ==Thats fine, but again that does not wash the seminary clean of guilt. They should not have re-admitted him and allow him to earn a degree so he could go pastor a church and have access to how many innocent victims? The seminary should have either contacted authorities or had the man to contact authorities. If no charges were pressed by the family that is there (bad) choice (since it gave the man a chance to abuse more innocents), but the seminary still should have never re-admitted the man and thus allowing him to earn his SEMINARY degree.

    _________________________________________

    You said:
    The administrator who was instrumental in the decisions is now much older and more frail. Part of the decision to settle was to avoid making him face the public embarrassment of the witness stand.

    ==I feel for him but he must take responsibility for what he allowed to happen. I am more concerned with the safety of children, and doing what is right, than I am helping someone avoid embarrassment.

    Martin.
     
    #57 Martin, Aug 30, 2005
  18. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    God forgives sinners. But God also sets high standards of conduct for elders. This man violated that standard, and though forgiven by God and man should never have been allowed back into seminary.

    The problem with seminaries today is the feeble excuse that the church ordains, calls, etc.

    If a man is known to have committed the sin of perversion with a child, he is no longer qualified to train in a seminary.

    DTS failed miserably, and not just in hindsight!
     
    #58 Paul33, Aug 30, 2005
  19. paidagogos

    paidagogos Active Member

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    As with most discussions regarding child molestation, this thread is filled with emotion and hype. There is a furor raging over child molestation. It goes without saying that child molestation is horrible, wicked, sinful and despicable. However, a lot of heat and very little light is being generated. It is as if we share a collective guilt for this happening but no one seems to know how to prevent it. I give workshops and seminars on the prevention of child sexual abuse. This is a topic that I have thoroughly researched. The problem is that no one has the answer. There’s a lot of talk but no one has an effective means of stopping it. now, we’re down to the finger-pointing and blame stage. Such is an exercise in futility.

    No one on this thread has presented a convincing and verifiable case that DTS was negligent or culpable in this sorry incidence. Their actions, as some aver, do not amount to admission of guilt. For the informed, one recognizes them doing damage control with out-of-court settlements. In fact, insurance companies pressure you to do this many times rather than risk an expensive lawsuit and astronomical settlements. This is the reason that I advise people to be sure their liability policies have an “obligation to defend” clause. I know innocent parties have settled out of court to avoid the risk. The hype is such that it runs to the irrational and it is almost impossible to receive a fair trial.

    As for readmission, we cannot judge until we know the inside story. Some forced withdrawals are made administratively to avoid bad publicity. I also know the workings of the PR guys. Then, there is a question about restoring a guy after repentance and reconciliation. Perhaps some should re-read II Corinthians before pontificating their opinions. If you don’t know what I mean then you are out of the circuit anyway. Did DTS believe he was guilty? I can conceive a realistic scenario of a school expelling an accused student even though they believed him to be innocent. The PR guys are powerful and paranoid. Did they allow the man to return because they believed he was repentant and had forsaken his sin?

    Child molestation can happen anytime and any place with anyone. You don’t have to be a convicted pervert on the sexual offenders list. (BTW, the sexual offenders list is a joke—most of those guys are not perverts but they got drunk and were caught urinating in a parking lot somewhere. If you don’t believe me, then take a list and start looking up conviction records. When they were arrested for indecent exposure, they were relieving their bladder of too much to drink.)

    Perhaps there is some collective guilt but it is not cured by outrage and venom toward the wretched sinners. What do you expect from a society that is constantly bombarded by sensual and sexual stimuli? IMHO, a steady diet of sex and sensuality coupled with the emphasis on self-gratification is too much for some guys and it pushes them over the edge. Exposure to sexual lust breeds more lust that eventually becomes uncontrollable. Feeding the inherent lust, IMHO, brings desire for more titillating experiences thus contributing to perversion. Yes, we need to look at our society, our mores’ and our moral standards. This bothers us so we would rather point the finger elsewhere. Now, we’re in the blame game.

    The bottom line is that a lot of folks are shooting off their mouths without knowing beans about the actual situation. They’re flaunting their ignorance.
     
    #59 paidagogos, Aug 30, 2005
  20. GARick

    GARick New Member

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    Responses to Martin’s inquiries and comments:

    “May I ask you a question?” Sure, why not a couple while we’re at it.

    ”The school re-admitted a man that they knew was a child molester. Do you believe that such an action is acceptable?”

    Any answer based solely on the information available from this half-page news article is pure speculation. Prime example, you describe the student as a known offender whereas the article depicts him as an accused offender at the time of dismissal/readmission. If the latter is accurate, then we are left to wonder how well founded were the accusations. The answer would seem different for a known offender than for an unfounded accusation. Based on the available information, my answer is “I don’t know.”

    “Not only that they gave the man a degree and said nothing further about his past. Is this type of behavior "having a meaningful impact for God" in your opinion?”

    I was referring to the overall positive impact that DTS has in God’s kingdom, not to this incident. This lone incident does not automatically preclude all DTS staff and alumni from accomplishing God’s purposes any more than 147 Baptist minister molestation news reports (http://reformation.com/) preclude the denomination from having an overall positive impact. The saddest thing of all is that dividing ourselves along systematic theology lines seems too often to take precedence over uniting against such terrible evil.

    “If it were some small issue (business, etc) I could overlook it. Everyone sins, everyone makes mistakes. Fine. However because DTS did nothing (after re-admitting a man they knew molested children) this cannot be overlooked or excused.”

    Speaking of systematic theology, I did not realize there is a list of “fine” sins and a list of sins that “cannot be overlooked or excused” (outside blasphemy of the Spirit). Could I get a copy of that list? It would seem a valuable list to have and I evidently missed class that day.

    “I pray for the many children this evil man hurt. I pray for them and their families. I pray for the people at DTS. I pray that God will save this man who is guilty of these horrible crimes (Rev 21:8).”

    AMEN!
     
    #60 GARick, Aug 30, 2005
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