COVINGTON THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY

Covington would be in a similar boat as Andersonville, both to be avoided because of big holes. There are too many good options. Folks who know no better often go study with these schools, not understanding the fact that the faculties are not qualified and the institutions as a whole are inadequate. Please look elsewhere.

Bill

 

Amen!

 

Would someone explain to me what draws honest, studious Christians to such schools as Covington instead of to the many, many credible schools which now offer degrees through Distance Education? Is it tuition cost or what?

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Paul 1611: I am (or was before retirement) sort of bivocational. I taught educationally or emotionally handicapped public, secondary school children for 35 years. [Coincidentally I studied my true love , Christian Theology]

Now, in order to teach those children, I had to show myself to be academically competent. I had to complete -besides the work for an accredited BA in English- two teaching certificates: one from the Univ of San Diego and one from Oregon State. This took altogether about six years of full time study, and after being credentialled I taught from 1969 through 2004. But what does this have to do with Covington and schools like it?

Simply this: Most Baptists do not believe that God pours into seminary professors heads magically all they need to know to teach! We do not think that profs are inspired as was Paul. Therefore, we think that Profs must go to credible schools to learn about what it is they wish to teach.

Think about it: If one must be so prepared by completing certificates in credible schools to teach Junior High disabled kids English and Social Studies, then why should not professors in seminaries not also be prepared by acquiring advanced degrees in the areas they teach from truly credible institutions?

Let me give you an easily used measure by which to initially evaluate on your own seminaries or Bible colleges in which you are interested: Look at the academic qualifications of the faculty! Are their higher degrees from truly credible schools? (and credible usually means accredited)

Do the professors of undergrad studies at said school at least have an ACCREDITED master's degree in the area in which they teach? Do the profs who teach grad studies have an ACCREDITED doc in the area in which they teach? IF the facultry is NOT academically qualified, then that is a red flag!

Of course this requires that you understand accreditation: schools which gives profs degrees in order to be credible most usually must be accredited by an accreditor approved by CHEA or the US Dept of Education. If the school is "foreign," then it should be approved by the governmental equivalent of our Dept of Ed.


Now, please look at the faculty of Covington, and please apply that test to it.

The truth of the matter is that Covington, like most of the millish schools, does not have a qualified faculty.

"Oh,", someone will reply," but we are not of the world." Of course, BUT, we are IN the world , and regularly we use the world's resources. Or do you drive your car on a highway owned and paved by Christians only?

The point is, even Christian accreditors as TRACS say that profs need to have accredited degrees.

Oh, well, I blather on as usual. PLEASE, Brother, do not "go" to Covingington.

Bill

[ October 09, 2005, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: UZThD ]

 

posted by UZThD:
Would someone explain to me what draws honest, studious Christians to such schools as Covington instead of to the many, many credible schools which now offer degrees through Distance Education? Is it tuition cost or what?


==I think there are several factors. (1) General ignorance of academic standards (etc). They believe if it is approved by the state to offer degrees or if the school is run by Christians and offers a Bible program than that makes it ok. They are also mislead by false accreditation claims. (2) Tution costs. Many of these type schools are very cheap and look great to those who are on a low budget. Combine the first two and you have a very dangerous combo. (3) Convenience. These schools offer degrees, from Associate to Doctor, totally via distance learning. No campus requirements, no proctor requirments, nothing that could be viewed as a inconvenience. (4) These schools are not as academically demanding as a Liberty, Southern, or Trinity Evangelical. So a person who does not believe they could handle a program at one of the established schools will attend a Covington in order to avoid difficult courses (etc). Many of these people could, of course, do the work at the established schools. However for some reason they have convinced themselves that they can't.

Some will say that God called them to attend a school like Covington. While I respect the belief they have I have some serious theological concerns with that. God does not call His people to second best! Don't forget that we are "God's masterpiece" (Eph 2:10) and He wants the best for us. If God has called a person to attend a seminary or graduate school He will provide the resources. While I personally can't relate I know of many people who, while attending Dallas or Southeastern, literally saw God provide the needed resources right on time (in the most unexpected of ways). If God has called someone God will provide. I have heard Charles Stanley say something that has impacted my life greatly. What is that? Obey God and leave all the consequences to Him. That is sound Biblical advice. So there is no reason for a child of God, who God has called, to attend a second rate school. None whatsoever! There are great, Godly, schools out there that provide solid Bible based programs on campus / on line / distance education. I think of Luther Rice (undergrad & grad) , Southern Evangelical Seminary and Bible College (undergrad & grad) , Moody Bible Institute (undergrad & limited grad) , Liberty University and Liberty Theological Seminary (undergrad, grad, post grad). Not only that schools like Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary offer large portions of certain degrees online or at extension centers. Southeastern has even arranged their schedule of courses to fit in with people's busy lives. So there is no reason to attend a less than good school. If God has called God will provide.

______________________________________

Btw Bill the advice you give is great. People will do will to heed such advice.

In Christ,
Martin.
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I liked it and would consider it again, but my choices were severely limited. Covington met three of the things I was looking for: 1. It is run by Baptists; 2. They offered degrees in the area of Church Music/Music Ministry, and; 3. It could all be done by distance. As I looked for schools meeting such qualifications, I could not find any. Since I graduated from Covington, I have found another couple of schools that, had I known about them at the time, might have been higher on my list thatn Covington. In face, I am looking at the possibility of enrolling in one of the in the near future.

So when I say I would consider them again, I might or might not enroll again. But I would have to consider them as a school that met the conditions I stated above.

[ October 09, 2005, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: poodle78 ]

 

Good answers Martin , and I feel the same about the advice you give.

I wonder if this forum would not do well to have a series of helpful articles about accreditation, distance education and the like.

 

Bill must be feeling a little better now adays ... I guess we could conclude that is an answer to prayer and good surgeons ...

 

El-G

Yes. I feel OK. Thanks very much for your prayers. Recovery has its good points. I haven't had such attention from my wife for years

Bill

 

That's a hard way to get attention UZ. What is your projecte recovery time?

 

===


I have several cardiac related medical appointments in the next two weeks. Should know more then.

I cannot drive until Nov, but I , nevertheless am walking a little.

I can stay focused for an hour or two each day and for the last several days I have been during that time working in Croy's Greek Primer which text is new to me. Grammar never was my strong point, and I last had it in '66. But I took four courses in exegesis in the 90s.

Spoke with Wayne House ,our seminary pres, today who said, "Take it easy, but we'll be glad when you can come back ." I am blessed.

Plan to go to church this Sunday. Called the secretary and told her to tell the pastor not to make the sermon too hot as I'm not to get overly excited

Tried to buy used (only kind I buy, except for shorts and socks) clothes yesterday at the thrift shop yesterday but got tired very quickly.

Should be pretty much OK in another five weeks.

Praise God our Redeemer and Healer Who supplies all our need .

Bill

 

Just finished prayers for you. I think I know how you feel it took a while longer then I expected to recover from cancer surgery.It's good you are using the time to study. Sure takes a long time to get smart don't it?

 

My Covington experience

I would encourage anyone to look at Covington. I earned my Master's Degree from them in '97. At the time, I was active duty in the submarine force in the U.S. Navy. As far as instructors go, mine had degrees from places like Southeastern, Southern, and Luther Rice. My instructors were not only learned academically, but practically. I learned a lot from them "in the field"-- things the textbooks don't teach you. Yes, the classroom time is important. Yes it is important to have instructors who are recognized in academia, but it is also important to have instructors in whom it is obvious that the hand of God is on. The "name brand" seminaries don't have a lock on these. From what I understand from some of the seminary grads coming out today, there are still some isolated pockets of liberalism and in my teaching that does not conform with the Bible. Another aspect is the fact that if a man is truly called of God he will give his "best" effort at learning whether in seminary or not. I know in my case much of my time during the week is spent just in studying anything I can get my hands on to teach me more about God, the ministry and how to serve Him better and mor effectively than I am now. If I were a young man just out of college and looking to go to seminary, Covington would not be my first choice. But it did work for me, and God has greatly blessed. On the downside, I'm looking to begin work on my Doctorate, and unless I continue on with Covington, places like Liberty and Southeastern though most of my Covington classes will transfer, require that I take additional courses before I can start. Because of this I will probably continue on with Covington. It was a great experience, I learned a lot, and again, God has blessed my ministry in the seven years I've been in the pastorate.

 

Seminary Education

Hi PA.

Up front let me say that I offer this post as a brother in Christ. I am not trying to tear anyone down, just trying to clear the fog concerning seminary education.

==Well, you don't find folks who earned their masters or doctorate degree(s) at Covington teaching at those schools. Why not? Because Covington is not up to those standards of academic performance. School, by the way, is about academic performance. If its not, then there is no reason to have schools at all.

==This is not about anything being "name brand" this is about academic quality. Look at the ThD program at Covington and compare it to the PhD program(s) at Southern, Southeastern, or any other seminary like that. All Covington's ThD program requires for entrance is "200 earned hours" and to graduate all they require is 36 hours of work and "a 50,000 word thesis in the field of theology". Where are the languages? Greek, Hebrew, Latin, German? Those are all VERY important in the field of theology and church history. Why are they missing? Why is Convington's entrance requirements much lower than those of other schools? Covington's programs do not result in the level of academic achievement that other schools do. I am not saying you can't learn anything at Convington, I am sure you learn alot. What I am talking about is the level of academic learning. Is a Covington ThD graduate on the same academic level of a PhD graduate from Southeastern? What about Covington MDiv graduates, are they on the same academic level as MDiv graduates from Liberty, or Southern, or Southeastern?

==So what? I don't know of any liberals coming out of Liberty, Southeastern, Southern, or Southern Evangelical today. In fact I don't believe you can be a liberal and even enter those schools. The fact is that all schools, including Covington, have graduates who later in life fall away. That is not a reflection upon the school as long as the schools don't admit them into their programs knowing they are apostates. As far as I am aware you have to agree with certain statements of faith to enter the evangelical seminaries (I know you do at Liberty Seminary and Southeastern).

Btw, even if that were true it in no way justifies Covington. With solid accredited distance education seminary programs out there today there is no reason to attend Covington (and yes, accreditation DOES matter).

==Seminary is graduate school and must be held to graduate school standards. If a person cannot do graduate level work, or does not wish to do graduate level work, he/she should look into a Bible College or Bible Institute. There are several of those online. Btw, I have no problem with Covington or Andersonville as Bible Institutes.

If a person wants to goto school they should seek out the best school they can attend, at whatever level.

==I would urge you to do the extra work and get in at Liberty (etc) it is well worth the effort. The "easy" or "quick" way is not always best.

I am glad to hear that the Lord is blessing your ministry and I, in no way, am questioning that. My pastor has a Masters and Doctorate degree from Covington and he is a great man of God. However even he would advise you to do the extra work. He got his degrees when there were not many distance ed options in the seminary arena. That has now changed. I pled with you to do the extra work and get in at Liberty, Southern Evangelical, or Luther Rice. In the long term you will be blessed and glad you did.

Btw, if you have any questions about Liberty Theological Seminary I would be more than happy to answer them for you. You can leave a question here, or PM me a question if you want. I have a MA in Religion from Liberty (via distance). I also attended Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary and if you have a question about that school l might be able to help. If I can't I know there are many others on this board who would be thrilled to help.

God bless you in your ministry and in your future studies (regardless of which school you attend)...Martin. :thumbs:

 

I tend to agree with Martin.

IMO the academic quality of a school can be estimated by (1) the academic qualifications of the faculty, (2) the rigor of the coursework, (3) the utility of the degree earned.

In regard to (1), IMO the standard qualification for teaching graduate academic courses as Bible,Theology,and languages is a PhD or ThD in the area of instruction. So also says TRACS! There may be exceptions.

In regard to (2), IMO a course is rigorous if the measurable outcomes can be shown as equivalent to those in accredited schools.

In regard to (3), the cumulative effect of a series of courses culminating in a master's degree can be estimate by the holder of that degree being accepted and being successful in an accredited or its foreign equivalent doctoral program.

It should be understood that there are a couple of unaccredited seminaries which regularly have alumni entering and graduating from accredited doc programs. Accreditation is not the real issue, rigor is.

IF Covington is academically rigorous in its masters program, then someone alert me to ONE Covington grad who on the basis of the Covington masters entered and finished an accredited doc in the area of the masters...just ONE?

But, if the issue is not academic, but only "spiritual," or whatever, then why have an academic degree?

Why list titles as "Dr." when the work done to earn such titles falls far short of what is expected for those degrees? How is that Christian?

 

Good posts Martin & UZThd.

I have an accredited doctorate and would always advise someone to go first with an accredited program. There are so many affordable programs. Whenever someone says they really can't afford....then I suggest they look at South African Theological Seminary. They are the equivalent of accredited, very easy to work with in terms of administration and really affordable. By graduating from an accredited program you have more options.

In terms of unaccredited programs (I am doing one now and there are still issues with it where I feel they need work), you should be look at one with a track record of getting people into accredited programs based on their degrees (not just accepting a few credits). You want some sort of recognition from official and respected bodies, and even something like that they can be used for military chaplaincy (means getting three accredited seminaries to attest to their equivalency and acceptance). Even with all of that you will suffer limitations. Even two of the better unaccredited programs (BJU & PCC have had grads encounter problems).

Nord

 

Martin, I appreciate the your feedback and opinion. You make excellent points, and yes the academic world, especially distance learning has dramatically changed in the ten years since I graduated from Covington. As a matter of fact, I am praying about the possibility of furthuring my education at Liberty. I have three of my church members either going there or getting ready to go there now. I've even served asa proctor for one of my older men that took classes from there. God bless you as well, this was my first posting to this website. I hope that all discussions and expressed opinons will be polite, open and honest as this one has been. P.A.

 

I don't even know if anyone has come back to this subject since the last post in 2006, but even if not, I would like to make my voice be heard. I am currently working toward an Associate degree at one of the satellite campuses of Covington, and the education I am receiving rivals that of any of the Southern Baptist seminaries. Things have changed in the last five years. Courses have become more rigorous, and requirements have gotten heavier. In terms of professors, every one of my professors has acquired at least one Doctorate, if not multiple. And if Covington wasn't a credible school, why would former Southern Baptist Convention president Johnny Hunt have pursued a Doctorate from there?

I am in no way trying to start a fight. I am simply providing current information. So, in answer to the original question asked in 2005, yes I would recommend Covington, whether for undergraduates or those pursuing higher degrees.

We in Christ and He in us,
Coop

 

I sincerely hope that you are posting this in jest. A good friend of mine in the ministry has a degree from Covington which he earned after getting his bachelors from Boyce college (SBTS' undergrad school). He said that the Masters classes were a joke compared to the undergrad classes that he had taken at Boyce...and this was in the last five years.

As for Johnny Hunt's doctorate...that Covington doctorate was honorary (thus unearned).Anyone in the convention the last few years is aware of the firestorm that was caused by his claiming it. Many people felt it entirely inappropriate for the President of a Convention with a number of fine seminaries to be seemingly endorsing sub-standard seminary education. Again, this debate was very public.

I am not impressed with places like Covington. If a person wants to argue that the degree is not important, then study the Scriptures as generations have. I am so tired of hearing people say that it isn't about the piece of paper, they simply attend these schools to learn. Isn't it interesting that all of them seem to be very interested in continuing all the way to a Covington or Andersonville doctorate. I find it equally interesting that they begin to use the title Doctor even though it was never about titles or degrees. Such schools function far too often as a way of people adding letters to their name without ever having to put in the work to actually earn them. Christians are supposed to reject such deceit.