Acedemic Freedom versus Indoctrination

By it's nature, collegiate education must be conducted in an environment with some degree of acedemic freedom and open inquiry. By it's nature, the message and ministry of the church is doctrinaire and dogmatic.

Do these facts not, of necessity, make the idea of a church supported collegiate institution of learning an impossibility?

Can a church, consistent with it's mission, support an institution which tolerates diversity of opinion and acedemic freedom? Can a college, consistent with it's mission, put itself in submission to dogmatic doctrinal parameters?

The obvious incompatibility of the distinct missions of church and college is clearly seen in the current rift between the historically Southern Baptist colleges and universities and the state Conventions which have traditionally supported them. It seems to me all the trouble could have been saved if, long ago, the churches had recognized that they cannot, consistently with their God given mission, errect and support a collegiate system.

What do you think?

Mark Osgatharp

I think that a Christian institution can tolerate some diversity of opinion within the framework of radical Christianity.

Diversity of opinion is good but the student must also be taught truth and not just opinion. I do think it is healthy for a student to know there is a diversity of opinion by godly radical Christians following Jesus who truly believe the Bible and try to interpret it correctly. All students must be taught to respect others even thiough they may disagree and how to debate and disagree while diagreeing.

I see no room for deviation from the obvious things such as salvation, God, Christ, making disciples, etc.

gb,

When the church at Corinth was divided, Paul commanded them all to "speak the same things". The closest thing to a tolerance of diversity of doctrine advocated in the New Testament is Paul's admonition, "him that is weak in the faith receive ye." But even that injunction assumes the weakness of the unlearned and is qualified by, "not to doubtful disputations."

I think the opinions expressed in your post do not derive from the Bible, but rather were formulated to accomodate the current union between church and college.

Mark Osgatharp

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
gb,

When the church at Corinth was divided, Paul commanded them all to "speak the same things". The closest thing to a tolerance of diversity of doctrine advocated in the New Testament is Paul's admonition, "him that is weak in the faith receive ye." But even that injuction assumes the weakness of the unlearned and is qualified by, "not to doubtful disputations."

I think the opinions expressed in your post do not derive from the Bible, but rather were formulated to accomodate the current union between church and college.

Mark Osgatharp

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Your attempt at an insult shows. You are sort of right. Show me one person in this entire world who has it all right.

So you do not think there was ever a diversity of opinion in scripture? Have you forgotten about Paul?

Are you suggesting it is impossible for a church to "all speak the same things"?

Show me a college or university where the policy is for all the teachers and students to speak the same things and those who are weak in the faith are tolerated only if they don't raise disputes.

Mark Osgatharp

Where was there diversity of opinion among any of the New Testament disciples, except that for which they were rebuked.

Mark Osgatharp

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
Are you suggesting it is impossible for a church to "all speak the same things"?

Show me a college or university where the policy is for all the teachers and students to speak the same things and those who are weak in the faith are tolerated only if they don't raise disputes.

Click to expand...

I asked you to name one person and you have not. If you cannot, then your opinion does not work. If Christianity does not work within your frameowrk of who your God is then you have a God that does not work.

My God always allows for diversity and unity at the same time.

Your opinion would contend that everyone would know everything and no opinion would exist. So how would you explain giftedness?

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
Where was there diversity of opinion among any of the New Testament disciples, except that for which they were rebuked.

Mark Osgatharp

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Who rebuked Paul and Mark?

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
Show me a college or university where the policy is for all the teachers and students to speak the same things and those who are weak in the faith are tolerated only if they don't raise disputes.

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So are you suggesting that you are perfect and without sin?

God allows for no diversity of opinion which is against the truth. He does allow for grace and mercy toward the ignorant. He does allow for diversity of opinion in personal preferences. He does not allow for any deviation of opinion from his stated truths.

A good New Testament example: The man who is a vegetarian is to be tolerated in the church, though with the understanding that he is weak in the faith. However, if attempts to teach vegetarianism as a doctrine, he is not to be tolerated, but to be dealt with as a heretic.

Will you hold a Baptist college to this same standard? Would you advocate the dismissal of a teacher in a Baptist college who attempted to teach vegetarianism as a doctrine?

The fact that we have failed to acheive God's standard does not change the standard. The standard for the church is absolute truth. The standard for the college is doctrinal diversity.

There is no compatibility between the two.

Mark Osgatharp

Originally posted by gb93433:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
Where was there diversity of opinion among any of the New Testament disciples, except that for which they were rebuked.

Mark Osgatharp

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Who rebuked Paul and Mark? </font>[/QUOTE]Paul rebuked Mark because Mark did wrong.

Mark Osgatharp

Originally posted by gb93433:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
Show me a college or university where the policy is for all the teachers and students to speak the same things and those who are weak in the faith are tolerated only if they don't raise disputes.

Click to expand...

So are you suggesting that you are perfect and without sin? </font>[/QUOTE]No, but I ask to tolerance from the church for my sin. What that has to do with what the Bible teaches about the standard of doctrine for the church is beyond my comprehension. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

Mark Osgatharp

What that has to do with what the Bible teaches about the standard of doctrine for the church is beyond my comprehension. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

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My point is that nobody is prefect and nobody has perfect doctrine. We are all sinners saved by grace travelling down the road to know God better.

I would press the issue of doctrine way beyond typical Christian doctrine today.

There is a huge difference between godly radical Christians and milquetoast conservatives who live like practical atheists. One who does not practice the word is in direct disobedience to the Bible. One who is not making discipes is not fit to be any leader in any church. Radical Christians do not tolerate those who are policiticians and not making disciples. Radical Christians make disciples for Christ who make disciples for Christ.

Most churches do not require any leaders to be currently making disciples.

Personally I do not believe anyone wanting to be a pastor, missionary or even attend seminary should be considered until he has discipled at least one or two people first. Every professor and teacher should be currently discipling people. You and I know most pastors are not and most professors are not making disciples.

If seminaries got tougher about accepting only students who had made disiples then maybe the churches would get serious or that seminary would not have any students.

[ February 01, 2006, 03:09 AM: Message edited by: gb93433 ]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
God allows for no diversity of opinion which is against the truth.

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Unless you would know absolute truth in every case then you could not be the judge of this. Every time we sin, we lie against the truth yet God forgives. Yet truth is still truth. I am not sure I am confident that I will not know all truth until Jesus comes. The truth is that all are to be making disciples yet few do and God has chosen not to smote those who are not from the face of the earth.

The standard for the college is doctrinal diversity.

Click to expand...

Perhaps you have had those kind of teachers but none I respected held to the standard you suggest. In fact the professors I had would hold your feet to the fire.

On one ocassion one of the students who thought he knew more than the teacher asked me before class one day about that teacher. I told him if he challenges him he had better have his stuff together. One day arrogantly he asked the teacher a question and that teacher gave him the whole nine yards at how he arrived at what he did. The student never said another word. That teacher was so thorough that he made the conservatives look like liberals.

Mark,

I have noticed that you have begun several threads in this forum that have a similar if not identical subject. Then you enage in a pretty stiff debate over the issues you raise. I would point out to you that this particular forum is a Baptist FELLOWSHIP Forum. It is designed for friendly discussions regarding Baptist Colleges and Seminaries. It is not a Baptist DEBATE Forum. If you want to debate these issues please feel free to do so in the appropriate Baptist DEBATE Forum.

For now I am closing this thread for review by the BB Administrative Council to determine if it should be allowed to continue here or be moved into the appropriate debate forum. Please do not begin another similar debate thread on this topic in this forum.

Yours in Christ,

Bible-Boy,
Forum Moderator

[ February 01, 2006, 06:16 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]