Shortened Master of Divinity degree?

"Impossible" is a strong word. It is certainly not "Impossible". I actually know a gentleman that did it (@ Golden Gate Theological Seminary).

FYI, I am taking 15 CH's per semester at Liberty, and seem to be having no problem. You just have to arrange your work time well. If I kept that up, along with the intensives I am scheduled for, I would complete the M.Div. in two years..

I think it is difficult to do, and NEARLY impossible for someone who has other things going on (work, family, Church); but certainly not impossible, expecially for a full time student (who DOESN'T have wife, kids, work,. etc.).

 

Rhet is right. No one blinks an eye at a med student selling all and moving famliy to go to medical school, or for the lawyer to go to law school, or the budding executive to go to B-School. That said, for someone who has garnered some theological education on a good school's campus shouldn't be precluded from further training once their ministries are under way. Nor should seminarians want an easy way out. Is a 90 hour program a bit much? Perhaps. But what do you do when so many of these have been watered down anyway? Some M.Div programs have no languages, scant theological studies, all in the name of practical courses. While neither should be neglected, the theology/exegesis is the basis for our praxis/ministry. We're chipping away our foundation and it has to stop.

 

"Rhet is right. No one blinks an eye at a med student selling all and moving famliy to go to medical school, or for the lawyer to go to law school, or the budding executive to go to B-School."

I agree 100%. Attending live classes provides a spiritual dimension that isn't found through distant education coursework. But people should pray for discernment before they uproot their families to relocate to a seminary campus hundreds, if not thousands of miles away. They need to make sure they're actually being led by the Spirit and not their own ambitions.

 

The LONG and SHORT of it.....

Okay...I couldn't go any longer without weighing in.

Rhet, I agree with the above quote. As pastors and Christian leaders there is a much greater demand upon us and it behooves us to strive for excellence in everything.

I don't think we need to shorten the MDiv. However, at many seminaries, even some SBC seminaries, there are courses that are an utter waste of a student's time. A good friend of mine was an SWBTS student....one of his classes was..."How to give a great invitation." Are you kidding me? Now granted, I don't think that class is still around (though I could be mistaken), but have you seen the cost of seminary education lately? Seminary students at SBC seminaries who are members of cooperating SBC churches receive a great discount, but many pursue those degrees while employed at a church and find even those great prices difficult. Courses like that are a waste of my time and money!! I don't mind 90-96 credit hours, if it's actually worthwhile. Pastors need to be more literate of the Holy Scriptures!

I don't know how clear I was, but I feel better for ranting a bit!!

-Matt

 

What about those of us who have already sold all of our stuff, and uprooted our family for the sake of the gospel? Who are already involved in things like traveling ministries, evangelism, etc.? Are they supposed to shut down the work of the gospel for the sake of an education, when they can in fact do both?

I believe your context was referring to the amount of rigor (number of CH's) rather than DE issues, but the way that you have phrased it...:type:

 

What about those who say, "I don't mind doing it, but I will not, because it is very poor stewardship of God's resources, when I can do the same thing without spending thousands extra.."

You are making some horribly inaccurate assertions, for someone with the degree of education which you possess.

#1 You are assuming that the study of Medicine, and the Study of Ministry and theology, require the same requisite skill. They do not.

#2 You are assuming that Distance Education is somehow inferior; that those who earn their degrees in such a manner, are somehow trained in to a less rigorous degree. Yet there has never been any empirical evidence that demonstrates this. On the contrary, the studies that have been done, show the exact opposite: self motivated individuals who participate in DE, do better across the board. Perhaps you are familiar with the recent data released by the USDE?

If you really want to say this, then considering the studies that have been done, you would have to say "How dare people spend tens of thousands of dollars, lazing around in residential classrooms, squandering our Lord's money, when the evidence says we could be saving money, AND getting trained more rigorously through DE! how dare we, how dare we!!"

I am doing DE, so that I can continue ministry work. I will tell you right now, I have it twice as hard as most of the residents. I have to do the same research projects, the same book critiques, PLUS weekly writing assignments that the Resident guys do not have to do (they get to just "sit in class", instead).

In addition to this, I am engaged in evangelism, I have two sermons to prepare every week, plus activities for my youth group, etc. Best of all, I am not sitting in a seminary somewhere left to my own devices; I am under the guidance and leadership of my very own pastor!

Considering that DE is more intense, I would say that it is the B & M guys who could not "stand the heat". Whats the matter, can't motivate yourselves?

As am I. Please note that my sarcasm in this post, is a literary device to expose the untenable position to which the "B & M only" guys hold. I actually equate them to the KJVO people, because they have basically the same logic: "This is the right way, because I say so."

 

HD, please tell me that your last post was entirely sarcastic, friend. Maybe I misunderstood.

 

It was 90 percent sarcasm. I was simply making the point that logic is sadly lacking in the "B & M only" approach to seminary education. Every study that has been done, including the recent findings released by the Department of Ed., demonstrate that DE students actually do better in every area, over the "B & M" guys.

Perhaps some of you are familiar with the Robertson methodology, that claims students learn best when they are forced to do it all on their own. I tend to agree with this. The best way to teach someone to swim, is to throw them in the water. Oftentimes, people in a residential program, are left at the end being rather immature, and unprepared. They have had their "hand held" the whole time.

I know one young lady and young man, in particular, who have not only had their morals decline heavily since their time in residence at a "conservative" Christian University: they also act as if they are 16, instead of 26, 27. They have spent their time hanging out with others at coffee shops, socializing, etc. They have gained, through this experience, a decidedly secular slant on their worldview.

Meanwhile, the DE guys are isolated from the bad elements, yet exposed to the good. They are required, typically, to do more work. Two classes that I am in, require 400 word (each) writing assignments, plus 3 responses of 200 words each, to other students posts (this is in addition to other requirements, obviously, such as research projects, and book critiques). The equivalent classes in residence, do not require this: it is designed to replace the "class interaction". One could definitely make a case then, that the DE format is actually more intense, and provides better training.

Hope that clears things up. I am not down on B & M: I hope to take a few resident classes. But I am down on others, who look down their noses, because I was able to learn Greek without "class participation"...

 

[quote=Rhetorician SNIPPED

We handle the "word of God," the Gospel, the words of eternal life; and we want the easy education. How dare we!!! How dare we!!!!

I would say, not for everyone seeking a way out or an easy fix for education, go on and do online or DE work. You may not could have stood "the heat of the day anyway?":wavey:

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Before I began the DTh by distance I completed the work for five degrees and two public secondary school teaching credentials by dutifully attending classes in (a total of) two seminaries and three universities. I've had lots of in class instruction. I now have the opportunity to compare also my own expectations for my DE students with those expectations my former classroom profs had for me. From my own experience I make the anectodal observation that learning by classroom instruction need not be harder or more efficient than learning by distance education. I wonder also if DE learning might more likely equip one with the skills to independently think & do the research involved with additional formal training and/or work in the pastoral study.

 

We've been round on the DOE stuff before. Won't go backwards.

I can name ancedotes of DE people who went off the deep end. That solves nothing.

We need to not fall into the fallacy of thinking that one way is ultimately superior because that's the way we did it. Remember that RE students have FT ministries too, and some like me did RE because of their FT ministries. I see far more arrogance from DE types than RE.

I am thankful I can do DE now, but I'm thankful I have the RE foundation to build the DE on. Otherwise, for me, it would be like building a house upon the sand.

 

Sometimes students of regular class schools graduate endoctrinated in that school's philosopy and theology. They can be as undereducated as those who take a simple correspondence course.

To my mind, the student always makes the difference. I am glad that extension studies are available for those who cannot attend classes for any number of reasons.

I take an extension course every year just to keep my mindworking. One course included on-line studies like a chat program.All the students participated and the professor led the way. It was rather interesting. The final exams were written under the supervision of an ordained pastor. I thought it was a good course.

Cheers,

Jim