Ways to witness in everyday life

Under the New Covenant I think that there is more of an emphasis on being Spirit filled, whereby this will bring great reward (a byproduct of being Spirit filled is obedience and fruit).

The Law, Christians are dead to (Rom 7:4). The law has no claim on the Christian - for Christ's sacrifice fulfilled the requirements of the law in total (although God may chastise etc wayward children). That is why we are exhorted not to use our freedom in Christ, as a license to sin. God forbid that grace may abound in this manner.

The law brings guilt and condemnation, it is not meant to be a measure for self-righteousness. For if we offend in one point, WE ARE GUILTY OF ALL. So if you sin just once today, you are guilty of adultery, theft, murder etc.... that is, you are a transgressor of the law. Doesn't matter which one.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

(If ye LOVE me keep my commandments)
LOVE for Jesus is to constrain us. Anything less is empty.
Pointing people to the law, rather than to Christ is misguided.

Perhaps the measure of how our Christian walk is going is our love (& fruit) for Jesus, not simply ticking a set of rules - fooling ourselves.
If anything, the law shows Christians our lack of love (unfaithfulness).

How is this position not conservative/fundamental Baptist?

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Maybe it would be helpful for you to consider your quote, Heavenly Pilgrim,
'and this is the commandment...' to discern exactly which commandment(s) - that Jesus gave - John is speaking of.

 

Gospelexplained.com: Under the New Covenant I think that there is more of an emphasis on being Spirit filled, whereby this will bring great reward (a byproduct of being Spirit filled is obedience and fruit).

The Law, Christians are dead to (Rom 7:4). The law has no claim on the Christian - for Christ's sacrifice fulfilled the requirements of the law in total (although God may chastise etc wayward children). That is why we are exhorted not to use our freedom in Christ, as a license to sin. God forbid that grace may abound in this manner.

HP: Ga 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.”

You say that we are “dead to the law;,” as if though the law has no bearing on us or our standing before the Lord. IF, I say again IF, I understand you correctly I would see that as false according to Scripture as I see you presenting it.

Ro 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

We, as believers, are only dead to the law as long as we have received forgiveness for sins that are past, and are currently walking in obedience. If we were to sin, the law is back in effect, condemning us for our sin and stands ready to condemn us for our action apart from renewed repentance and faith. Just as I am dead to the laws controlling the speed limits as I am in willing compliance with them, but if I violate the law, it stands ready to convict me again. To be dead to something is not to be unable to violate the law once again and come under its sanctions, but rather to be dead to the law simply implies to be unwilling to violate the laws precepts and as such it has nothing to condemn us of, but rather stands as a testimony to our obedience.

A motion sensor is used to determine motion. Just the same, it determines when one is not in motion as well. The law informs us of both when and not when we are in compliance to its demands. It convicts us when we are not in agreement to its precepts, and serves as a clear indicator of our present obedience as well. That is what the Psalmist spoke about when he called the law his delight. Ps 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. It is not dead to us in any absolute sense, nor should we be dead to the law in any absolute sense. We should live so as to be found delighting in it and living according to its precepts!

Many passages in the NT concerning the law, are references to the ceremonial law given to the Jews in the OT as a schoolmaster. Moral law never changes as long as we are in the state for which its precepts directly apply. God’s law is a reflection of His character, and as such is as eternal as He is. His law, in a moral sense, is unchanging and eternal.

1Jo 3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” It matters not whether you are a believer or not, if you violate the law you are a transgressor of the law, and as such stand guilty before God. As we walk in the light as He is in the light, we are dead to the law, for we are in compliance to its demands. We as believers should be dead to the law, i.e., in the sense that we are walking in willing obedience, unwilling to violate its precepts.

 

HP you make sense in declaring sin as rightly being sinful - saved or unsaved - as measured by the (old) law. In this we both agree. (...To answer your "if".)

It is which law (old or new) we FOCUS ON in Christian living we disagree on - I think.

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Christians die to their relationship to the old law, and are lifted up to live in the NEW commandment(s) of Jesus as I tried to point out through your previous Bible quote.

GE: "Maybe it would be helpful for you to consider your quote, Heavenly Pilgrim,
'and this is the commandment...' to discern exactly which commandment(s) - that Jesus gave - John is speaking of."
It would be helpful to consider so as to appropriately get the context of Gal.2:17 in relation to Gal 2:19, also.

Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Christians are to Focus on THE NEW COMMANDMENT(s) of Jesus -
The NEW commandment (of Christ) involves LIVING unto God.
The OLD commandment (of Moses) involves becoming guity and DYING spiritually unto God.

The focus of the NEW is a relationship. The FOCUS of the OLD is works, and being misapplied tends towards Phariseeism. Yet they both SEEK FOR obedience.

In the Christian era - applying the NEW highly esteems others;
In the Christian era - applying the OLD exalts self.
The NEW seeks charity and gentleness; the OLD seeks condemnation and produces a judgmental outlook. The NEW is the way of the Spirit; the OLD - today in practice - is the way of the flesh.

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Jesus' words are life.
Moses' words (re commandments) are good, holy, true, etc, but in reality bring DEATH which THEN requires faith in God (atonement for the OLD law).

Today the great reward lies in our relationship with Jesus Christ.
Our focus is being in the Spirit,
as opposed to being in the flesh (old law focused).

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

 

Gospelexplained.com: Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

HP: When looking at the verses in Galatians you mention, I do not believe that it is the works (in a sense) God calls upon man to perform as conditions of salvation that Paul is addressing which are, repentance, faith, or obedience to the moral law until the end, that Paul is addressing with words such as “made perfect in the flesh” or “dead to the law” or “I do not frustrate the grace of God,” or “for if righteousness come by the law.” It is apparent to me by the issues Paul brings up with these Galatians believers that deal with problems concerning their insatiable desire to revert back into the customs and ordinances of the ceremonial law, and that by keeping of them they obviously felt that they would or might “merit” eternal life. Ga 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.” So here is what I believe Paul was addressing. First and foremost the issue of ceremonial law, which in the case of the Galatians was, obviously seen in Chapter 5, circumcision. They must have been very incessant in reverting back to the old covenant ceremonial demands that Paul clearly understood had been wiped away by the atoning work of Christ, thinking that justification came by the keeping of this OT ordinance. The issue was not that repentance, faith and obedience to God’s moral law was not commanded and enjoined for them to do, but rather that circumcision was done away with as a means of justification. Note, they had 'falsely' thought circumcision was a means of justification, but from the beginning it was not so.

It is interesting to note that circumcision was NEVER, nor was any obedience to the moral law, nor the shedding of the blood of animals, ever the means of justification. There has been one ground and one ground only for salvation from Adam to our day, i.e., the mercy of God via the means of the sacrificial death of the Coming Messiah to them, and our Lords’ atonement on the cross for us. The Jews were just as confused then as much of the water baptism, church joining, ordinance partaking crowd is today. No I am not speaking against any of these ordinances, for they serve their intended purpose if partaken of in the right spirit in clear understanding of what they can and cannot do. Still, there are a lot of individuals today, as I am sure you are aware of, that still feel that justification comes by the performance of these works. None of these ordinances are conditions of salvation, but there are some works (in a sense), some formed intents of the heart and subsequent actions that God says are indeed ‘necessary works’ in order to make the atonement effective in our lives. Repentance, faith and obedience unto the end are three that Christ as well as Paul clearly enjoined as necessary to make the shed blood of Christ effective in our lives for salvation. These works of man, that God has placed as conditions for salvation, are NOT meritorious in any way, and do NOT constitute the grounds for forgiveness, but rather are always thought of in the sense of ‘not without which,” not “that for the sake of.” We are not saved on the account of these works, but neither will we be saved apart from these works. James tells us clearly, that faith without works is dead being alone. I believe the works he is referring to are none other than the three issues I mentioned above, i.e., repentance, faith, and obedience until the end. Here is brief illustration to make this point more understandable.

A man goes to prison for life, being justly condemned and sentenced by a judge for a specific crime. Can such an individual ‘merit’ a pardon by the performance of good works while in prison? Can such a criminal perform good works to such a degree that the governor is forced to grant this man a pardon based merely on the ‘merit’ of the performance of such good works? Absolutely not. Just the same can the governor, if he so pleases, pardon such a criminal? Of course he can. Still, there is something the criminal MUST do, there is an attitude that MUST be reflected by the criminal to receive a pardon IF the governor is indeed fair and just, and attitudes are tied inseparably to intents of the heart, this very initial intent being none other than a ‘work’ in one sense of the word. The governor MUST witness from the criminal a repentant attitude and a change of heart towards his former criminal behavior if the governor is even to consider such a pardon for the criminal.

What kind of governor would pardon a criminal from prison who had not exhibited true remorse for his crimes? Would not the governor have to be satisfied in his or her mind that IF they pardoned such a criminal that they would not return to commit the same crime or one of like heinous behavior upon society again and that such a criminal possessed and exhibited a true change of heart and attitude towards their former behavior? There are indeed certain conditions that the criminal must meet, works that such a one must of necessity do in order to have the opportunity for a pardon if such an opportunity is offered. These works on the part of the prisoner are in no way meritorious in nature, and in no way force the governor to grant such a one a pardon on their account. Just the same, there are definite conditions or works one must do in order for the governor to consider the pardon. These works are thought of in the sense of ‘not without which,’ not ‘that for the sake of.’ It can properly be stated that one is not pardoned due to any works (in one sense of the word ‘works’ in the sense of ‘that for the sake of’) of the prisoner, but just the same it can be said ‘without works’ (in another sense of the word, that being in the sense of ‘not without which’) one will never see the opportunity to receive a pardon.

Can you see how that works can be thought of as necessary for a pardon, or in the sense of “not without which,” yet at the same time no amount of works can be thought of as “that for the sake of” or forcing the governor to pardon the criminal on the account of works performed by the criminal?

The ‘conditions of salvation,’ or ‘works’ that God calls upon every man to do in order to receive a pardon for sins that are past, is not the issue of ‘works’ that Paul was addressing them about. Circumcision and possibly other OT ceremonial law were the issues, not repentance, faith, or obedience to God’s moral law until the end.

When the heart is right and repentance and faith are first enjoined, I believe you are right in that obedience will be the natural consequence of our primary focus, love towards God and our fellowman shed abroad in our hearts via the Holy Spirit. We will not have to grudgingly “work” at being obedient, but rather as our love toward God remains our primary focus, those works will flow as a natural result of that love, just as works towards our spouse flows naturally as a result of our love and commitment to them. Just the same, as we live out our life and see actions possibly inconsistent in our lives towards the object of our affections, it is a clear indication whether or not our love is sincere and if we are in fact who we believe we are. “Examine yourselves, to see if ye be of the faith’ is the Scriptural admonition. “Joh 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;”

 

HP with the following quote you are sounding like a seventh-day adventist or methodist -
HP: None of these ordinances are conditions of salvation, but there are some works (in a sense), some formed intents of the heart and subsequent actions that God says are indeed ‘necessary works’ in order to make the atonement effective in our lives. Repentance, faith and obedience unto the end are three that Christ as well as Paul clearly enjoined as necessary to make the shed blood of Christ effective in our lives for salvation.

With the following quote you are sounding like Church of Christ -
HP: We are not saved on the account of these works, but neither will we be saved apart from these works.

The position you are pushing is certainly NOT Baptist.
But more importantly it is certainly NOT Biblical, and is a departure from the gospel.
Salvation is based on the merits of Christ alone.
Yes repentence and faith are involved, but not works Eph2:8,9.
You preach a 'saved by grace, kept by works' gospel - which is NOT the gospel.

I pray that you will receive Jesus as your savior.
Presently you AND Jesus are your "savior".

Could a moderator please inform HP that this is a Baptist only forum.

 

gospelexplained.com...

pointing people to the law first then to Christ is misguided?
or do you simply mis-understand what is being said.
i agree with the latter.

"for the preaching of the cross is to them that perish, foolishness"

... so if unbelievers are going to think Christ on the cross is foolishness... then what must we teach so that they would understand and not think it is foolishness?

the law. the moral law. the ten commandments.

do you not understand that?

 

let me explain a little.

following God's will - is works.
if we do not have those works.

where are we going to end up.

 

The thread topic is -
Ways to witness in everyday life

I believe the reason why this is a Baptist only section of the forum, is to help to keep out pointless timewasting discussions (to Baptists), that is unfair to the thread starter, and everyone else who contributes from the Baptist community.

When I make comments in this section I assume that I am exhorting/encouraging other Baptists. Not having my time wasted by those who pretend to be Baptists, just to push their own theology.

For a look at the role of the law in the gospel as I see it, view the flash movie at
http://www.explorechristianity.com

This gospel presentation can be used to witness to our friends - back on topic.

 

HP: First, I am not a Methodist, nor have I ever been part of the Church of Christ, and I am for sure not a SDA. I attend a Southern Baptist Church and have for some time.

Scripture clearly informs us that salvation is not accomplished by faith without works, and it tells us that it is by faith without works. These at first seem to be contradictory, but as I have attempted to explain, ‘works’ can and are thought of in TWO distinct senses in Scripture. The book of James was written as inspired by the Holy Spirit as was the Galatians and others written by Paul. If you do not harmonize the two senses, all you can do is to get out your scissors and cut out the one you don’t like. That is what you obviously desire to do. It sure takes less thought that way.
I am sure there was a whole bunch of the twelve tribes that wished they had a moderator to call to get rid of the annoyance of that trouble making Apostle James as well. Some things, it seems, never change.

“My people perish for a lack of knowledge.” I have always wondered if it is really a lack of knowledge or simply ears to hear?

May God judge us both according to kindness and love according to His abundant mercy and grace.

You can call off your moderator.

 

im more baptist then anything else. so i label myself as such.
yet subtly - so as not to connect myself with legalist views on denominations.
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i see where that movie is going... to escape judgment? that's nonsense.
i believe the bible when it says "for it is appointed a man once to die, then comes judgment"

God will bless those who diligently seek him?

the bible also says that there are none that seek him.
so it is not the ungodly that want to seek God.
it is God drawing us to him - and because of that - we seek his face.

the movie barely focus's on the law. one section. hooha.
its a good movie though - like the soundtrack.

"God wants to bless you!" - that sounds... i dont know... but to have that in the beginning?

that video is more like Grace - little bit of law - GRACE.
i dont mind it. the structure i dont agree with.

and this escaping judgment deal - thats not right.
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one thing i noticed is that it does not expand on the law - like it doesnt go to say that hating somebody is murder - or that lust is adultery...
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what i saw that video as was an instruction manual on how to escape judgment - "we need mercy not judgment!" - huh? we deserve judgment - and we're going to get judgment - whether we like it or not.
why should we skip judgment?
what would be the point of judgment day if we are not all judged together?
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