Jack Hyles Pastor School

What church DO you attend, Dr.K?

I am not being nosy. I am asking as a moderator.

One must be a member of a Baptist church, and have that reflected in the personal profile, in order to post in Baptist Only Forums.

Thank you,
§ue

 

I only know those that have gone to Pastor's School the last two years. They were good fruit before they left, and were better fruit when they returned. My Pastor is good fruit, although he is not a convert of Hyles, he is a HAC graduate. I believe the Holy Spirit gave him the ability to preach the way he does; however, I believe that HAC prepared him well for the ministry. HAC was under Hyles while he was there, and he speaks highly of the man. You have first hand knowledge of Hyles, but I have no first hand knowledge of you. My Pastor has first hand knowledge of Hyles, and I do have first hand knowledge of him. I cannot provide you with a list of Hyles converts. I do not know if my Pastor can, and I wouldn't bother asking him for one. I am not saying that you are wrong in your assessment, but I am just saying that I truly respect the opinion of my Pastor, and it is not a blind following. I have read what you have posted, and personally, I am not really sure if you and I could personally fellowship considering your approach. But's it OK, there are some IFBers that I cannot fellowship with either because of the approach they took with their vocal and negative opinions on Billy Graham, the SBC, etc. In regards to Joe's Baptist Church & Emporium, I believe that an issue may arise regarding if in fact you are Baptist, and as such, the question whether you should be posting in this particular area at all.

 

O.K. . . . I think I get it. I have raised what is apparently a very sensitive issue: whether or not Jack Hyles practiced what he preached. I think that I have made the point that he did not,and that my point has remained unrefuted. So now it seems that I am not qualified to post here.
My suspicion is that this tactic is the result of a collective inability to refute my claim about Hyles having no personal converts.

As far as being a Baptist, I was saved in a Baptist church, graduated from a Baptist Bible college (HAC), graduated from a Baptist seminary (Hyles-Anderson Seminary), attended FBC Hammond for many years, taught in Pastor's School, and had Hyles write the intro to my first book. So . . . . . that would make me a . . . . . what . . . . . Presbyterian . . . . ?

But . . . do not be alarmed . . . . your forum is far from a permanent venue for me for me; once every few years does nicely.

I am sure that you are all good people. I would only hope that to that goodness you would add a modicum of discernment, and accept the possibility that all is not what it seems in the IFB world in general, and in the life and ministry of Jack Hyles in particular.

While at FBC Hammond, I saw what I had always called discernment come to be called a "critical spirit." I would judge this as the paranoid reaction of man with closets abounding with skeltons. Having opened a few of those doors myself, I can attest to the accuracy of that original suspicion, and I can do so in great detail with all the empirical evidence any rational person should require.

 

No one said that at all.

Would you please answer my question?

What is the name of the church where you have your membership?

This is required to be on your profile.

You live in Indiana but your home church is in San Diego?

 

The matter of you being qualified to post or not is simply a matter of being honest and not deceitful.
religion: BMF--never heard of it
church: "Joe's Baptist" fictitious (by own admission)
personal testimony: We are asking you; Please don't ask us to ask you.

In other words just fill out your profile honestly, so that the administration can decide or discern whether you are truly a Baptist or not. We only ask for honesty. This is based on the honor system. Sooner or later those who try to get in via the back door will be found out.
DHK

 

My testimony has been published and gives ample evidence of my new birth. It is available to anyone interested.

I attend a Baptist Church in the Chicago area, but have learned from years of participation in this forum that it is not in my best interest to reveal personal information. I don't mean to appear curt, but that is not anyone's business.
If that does not meet someone's approval, then govern yourselves accordingly in the matter. I came to make a point, and that point was amply made. I have no further use for this forum.

If your qualification for participation exceed God's qualification for Christian fellowship, (and they clearly do), then I would also respectfully decline further participation. Please pardon me for saying so, but that would be to me another classic example of IFB dogma once again exceeding God's standard. (I'm glad Jesus didn't take that position with me years ago. . . .)

It is unfortunate that you could not be honest with me and just say "We don't like you and wish you would go away." Instead, you seem to be contriving an extra-biblical standard of exclusion. This is all pathetically transparent.

If you are seeking to assemble a Jack Hyles / FBC Hammond cheerleading squad, perhaps you should have reflected that criterion in the name of the forum. A little objectivity would have gone a very long way . . . . . but objectivity, I can see, is still not a terribly popular concept in the IFB world.

Thank you all for the reminders. God bless you.

Jerry D. Kaifetz, Ph.D. (a.k.a. "Sailorman")
Hebron, IN

 

No sir. It is unfortunate that you have been both deceitful and dishonest with us. You lied. You put a name in your profile designating the church you belonged to, which was not your church. That is deceit, a lie. It is not becoming of a Christian. As a Christian what do you have to hide?

And why are you making slanderous accusations about BB? That again is not becoming of a Christian. Even a quick cursory glance over the board, will give you the understanding that the board is made up of a variety of Baptists. It is not even a "fundamental" board, per se. There are liberals that post here, new evangelicals, primitive baptists, SBC, and many others. There are some IFBers. There are a few (not many--a very few) that follow Jack Hyles. You are very much deceived in your outlook, in your perception of this board. Did you happen to visit the Other Christian Denomination Forums where there are Pentecostal, SDA, Catholic, and others that post there?
Did you happen to notice that this is a private board. When you joined the board there was a button you clicked that said "I agree." Did you agree to the rules that the Webmaster had set forth, or did you not understand the plain language of the BB? It is a private board and the Webmaster has every right to limit posting privileges to Baptists as he desires. The name Baptist Board is thus named for a reason. If you don't like it you are very welcome to go somewhere else. We certainly won't stop you. Just don't the wrong impression of who we are.
DHK

 

You are in error, sir, about my listing a church that I do not belong to. I did no such thing. I belong to an Independent Baptist Church in Santee, California. That is the church where i was saved in 1983, and that is where I tithe. Why is that even your business? I also attend a Baptist church closer to home. (Perhaps you should be a little more careful about jumping to conclusions and calling folks liars.)

Please quote for me the "slanderous accusation" that I have made about the BB (of course, "you lied" is not slanderous. . . ). I simply said that I have learned not to trust the participants -- not all, but a good percentage. I have the right to that opinion, your pejorative overreaction not withstanding. (Please don't forget the quotation marks in your reply.)

I am not the slightest bit deceived about these boards. I participated for years. They can and most often do get quite ugly sooner or later. (Do you recall the F.B.I. becoming involved after threats were made several years ago? I certainly do.)

I never said you did not have the right to exclude anyone you choose. I simply pointed out, and quite accurately, I think, that your "standards" of fellowship are extra-biblical.
I never said you didn't have the right to deal with a private forum in a private way. I also implied that your hostile reaction was typical of IFB folks I had known over the years. I'll stick by that one as well.

It is you, sir, who have prolonged my participation here. I have no use whatever for your forum beyond my original point in posting. I'll gladly drop the whole thing & move on if you will. You don't even have to apologize for calling me a liar or labeling my disagreemnts as a "slanderous accusation." (love that one . . . !)

For the record, I am as much a Baptist as anyone who has ever posted here, or may in the future. Further, I am certainly not accountable to you or anyone else here for an affiliation and identity that has been a part of me for over twenty years. You have precious little to offer me in return if that were even a consideration, and I can assure you that it is not.

 

I am not in error at all. If that is the church that you belong to, then why didn't you say so? Why didn't you identify yourself as an IFB in the first place? Why was your profile so vague? You still haven't given the name of your church as requested in the profile. Why? Are you ashamed of it?
"Why is it any of your business? you ask.
It is the business of the administration to ask what church each one registered belongs to. If they do not belong to a baptist church (of some kind--not necessarily an IFB church), then they cannot post in Baptist only forums. There are other forums that non-Baptists for them to post in. Thus we expect, at the very least honesty. If you can't agree to abide by the rules (which you agreed to do when you registered), why should the administration allow you the privilege of posting here? You have been deceptive, have lied in your profile, have not told the truth, and have been dishonest with the administration.

Concerning the IFB movement in general, this is slander:

Against the BB, I count these statements as rather sladerous, or at least inane:

Since when did we ever even hint at or even suggest that our standards exceed those of God's. That is slander. Then immediately you refer to IFB dogma, when the board is not governed by IFB dogma, but rather is made up of a diverse spectrum of Baptists. Again--more slander. We were honest with you, but you were not honest with us--this was a direct lie on your part. Then to accuse us by saying that we just didn't like you is absolutely ridiculous. Grow up!

No, unless you are more specific I don't know what threats you are speaking of, and I don't know what incidents you are referring to. Hearsay and gossip are wrong for any Christian.

And just how is it unbiblical. If I have a birthday party and refuse to invite you, is that unbiblical too? Don't be riducous. It is a privilege to post here and not a right. Each registration is approved by the webmaster and/or the administration. It is a private board. They have the perfect right to refuse any person they wish. It has nothing to do with God's standard at all. They are the "creators" of this site. The creator has power over his creation to do as he will. If you disagree, you have the right to leave.

If I am wrong show me where I am wrong. I have given you adequate quotes above. Your main problem is deceit, (and no doubt pride). You are dishonest in that you will not fill out a profile as you agreed to when you clicked the "I agree" button. That in itself was a lie. You agreed to what you did not agree to. If you did not agree to it, why did you say so. That is hypocrisy, deceit, and outright lies. Is this the kind of Christianity you display to others??

I have no doubt that you are a Baptist. But as long as you are evasive in your profile I might as well count you as a Seventh Day Adventist. How would one know otherwise, if you have already admitted to deceit (purposeful "levity."). You are accoutable. You are accoutable to God, first of all. And once you joined this board you became accountable to the rules of this board which meant filling out a profile, honestly. Is that such a great or difficult task? Why are you ashamed of your affiliation? The requirement of affiliation is there for a purpose. Surely your smart enough to see that. We have had a Catholic put Baptist in place of religion. But when he started arguing in defence of baptismal regeneration, and against soul liberty, he was soon found out, and soon after banned. He was banned, not so much for his Catholic doctrine, but more for his deceit in his profile. Why should we hold any different standard for you? Please explain.
DHK

 

Dr. K...you say noone CAN post a list of converts. As stated in my earlier reference, we're not accountable to you to do such, and probably would not do so just because of your deceitfulness and hateful attitude. This is not in defense of Hyles, but in defense of those he led to Christ. As stated, I personally can name at least ten who have been saved through his witnessing. It's not hard to believe that others have seen him lead others to the Lord as well. Again and again you have misrepresented people not being willing to answer to YOU personally as a fact of Hyles not winning souls, and this just isn't the case. May God forgive you for this.

 

Look . . . . I have nothing further to gain or to say here beyond this post.

# 1 I have an opinion about the IFB movement, but apparently you persist in calling that "slander," yet will not provide a specific, slanderous statement I have made, (the classic IFB protocol).

#2. The fact remains that not one person has been able to name one of Jack Hyles personal converts, despite multiple opportunities. His converts remain hearsay, and nothing more.

#3. I have been called a liar and accused of slander, allegedly making me a poor Christian, yet your "moderator" cannot give me a specific instance, despite every word I have written being clearly evidenced to all.

#4. The whole experince has become distasteful and hostile to me, just like the IFB crowd and their miriad of shallow simpletons (just my opinion!) in general. (btw . . . . "slander" is defined as "false charges . . . & "misrepresentation," not just something negative. I can substantiate all of what I have said.)

#5. Personal aspects of my faith are discretionary, and I will reveal them to whom I choose. I have been around these particular forums before, and have good reason for this policy. I will not be intimidated to go against it. The FBI WAS involved a number of years ago after death threats were made to the webmaster. That is a fact, and I will not say more, as I was then asked to hold the details in confidence. It matters not one whit if you or anyone else believes that.

#6. I ran out of any sound reason to stick around a number of posts ago. So go ahead and gossip (or whatever you will choose to call it) about me to your heart's content.

#7. Jack Hyles was a hypocrite, and adulterer, and a class A narcisist. I would venture to say that I knew him better than anyone on this forum. He swept away the rampant debauchery of his son, leaving other churches to deal with his life-long destruction of families, and Jack Hyles pardoned a convicted child molester and kept him on the deacon board and board of trustees at the college after his conviction & during his imprisonment. You can all believe the lies to the contrary. Two books and a lengthy documentary present all the evidence any rational and discerning Christian should need. The record is there, and it remains unrefuted after 16 years.

Surely there are better things for us all to be engaged in than these petty dialogues.

Bye now . . . .

 

The whole thing distresses me, the antinomian-mental assentist, repentanceless easy-beleivism, quick-prayerism, half-salvation method that he got into LATER on. I read the early Hyles stuff, and sermons and they were good! But if his son David, (who i have read all about already recently) is the fruit of that doctrine, then let's not get out-of balance the other way, Hyper-Calvinist, but lets get Biblical and/or Baptistic on Soteriology and Repentance (which happerns to agree with Calvin a lot)

 

To set the record straight here, the degree given to John R. Rice's horse was called "Doctor of Horse Sense," which is obviously facetious. And I believe it was more like 1976 than 1970, but I can't prove it.

And now the rest of the story. Dr. Rice was not pleased that his horse, "Mac," had been borrowed without his permission. The person responsible at the Sword of the Lord got in trouble over that one.

 

Like I said before I attended a Jack Hyles church in Ca. The very young egotistical angry preacher was a worshiper of the man. His tactics were extremely CULTIC in nature ( you can read my examples in the other Jack Hyles thread and compare them to the cults ) Very cultic indeed.

I think many of us who have seen THROUGH the Dangerous and false teachings of these churches who continue to teach legalism, numbers only and outward apperances are more important than the HEART. Have every right to steer others away so they too do not live screwed up lives wanting to end it all because their mind now has no true understanding of Gods Love and true Christian fellowship and all the hypocrisy the people have.

Anytime people are taught that OUTWARD apperances are WAY more important than ones HEART and walk with God and that everyone else who doesn't teach exctly what they teach is going to Hell is WRONG. And how anyone can stay in a church that does that is WAY beyond me.( we lasted one year since there wasn't any other conservative churches around, and that was too long ) But hey if that is the way they think too, then I can understand why they stay. It is easy to ACT and LOOK like you are spiritual than to actually be spirit filled. Birds of a feather flock together.

This thread has opened my eyes and understanding even more to certain people if not confirmed it.

[ September 29, 2005, 02:01 AM: Message edited by: RightFromWrong ]

 

Great Book to check out dealing with this type of church is called.

The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse

This book along with Wisdom Hunter helped me tremendously with what happened to our family after being in 2 churches like this. This book is dealing with " Christian " Churches more than it does with CULTS but you will the similarities with both.

 

Dr. K wrote

hmmmm where have I heard that before ?