Grace

donnA

You said, "Many times people base their 'biblical' beleifs on soemthing other then scripture itself, like 'feelings' or expereince, none of which hold anymore authority then those who base their 'bibical' beliefs on tradition or the so called authority of a man. Never willing to sacrifice what they wish were true(this of the self) for actual truth."

That is very perceptive. It is a matter of admitting what is held closely as true is clearly rejected by scripture. Since it can't be confirmed by scripture, you turn to "experience" instead. If you have built an entire theology around what you want to be true, rather than what scripture says is true, it will be close to impossible to reject it in favor of scripture.

 

Scott J

You said to TexasSky, "I started out pretty close to where you are. And was plagued by doubts about my salvation because of arminianism's imbalance toward man's free will. I was bothered by the fact that the belief I had then truly did leave God guilty of the condemnation of anyone who didn't get a chance to hear the gospel. I tried to find some kind of scripture to tell me that everyone would get a fair chance... it wasn't there."

"What was there was the clear declaration of man's guilt and unworthiness. No one deserves the chance for salvation. That is the starting point. This is also a biblical point that your belief cannot sufficiently account for."

This is the heart of the controversy and you have stated it well. It is whether we can see past our own bias of what is or is not fair concerning the salvation of men, and embrace the clear revelation of God found in scripture that God has chosen to whom He shall pour out His grace upon, according to His own will and pleasure. Those that are save have no room to boast,(it is totally a work of God's grace) those that are lost have no basis for complaint (they get exactly what they deserve because they have rejected God)

 

Thanks JDC

I think TS decided to quit us... I really would have liked an answer to my question before she went. I have not had a single non-calvinist give a thoughtful answer to it.

At the risk of offering a fallacy of limited alternatives myself, I can only see two possibilities for the prime cause of the decision to accept Christ. Either God caused it by giving us a new nature and freeing us from the bondage of our own sinful nature or else there is something good within the person independent from God. Of course if it is based on any goodness coming from an individual including a "good decision" of undefined origin then it is by merit, not grace, that we are saved.

 

Well said Scott!!

There is no good apart from God.

<><
IHS,
cbc

 

Deuteronomy 30:11 - 20

"Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it." Nor is it beyond the sea so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sae to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" NO, THE WORD IS VERY NEAR YOU; IT IS IN YOUR MOUTH AN DIN YOUR HEART SO THAT YOU MAY OBEY IT." See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws, that you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess. This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the Lord your God. Listen to his voice and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob."

Tell me again that God "doesn't give you a choice". That is isn't biblical. That I am a HERETIC for telling people that God tells them, "Here are your choices, life or death, choose."

 

Scott -

Here is your answer, but I truly believe you've closed your eyes and ears and heart to the truth so I doubt you'll accept it.

Deuteronomy 30:11 to the end of the chapter which says the Word is in us, we have to choose between Loving God and death.

 

This is hilarious... I have not closed my eyes nor ears and you STILL haven't answered the question.

I didn't ask whether you had to choose or not. Open your eyes and ears to this TRUTH. I asked why you chose as you did.

 

OK... You get half of it. Man is responsible to obey God. Now take the other half:

Why did some Israelites obtain? Because they made good choices of completely their own volition? No. Because they were elect.

BTW, I haven't called you a heretic. You are simply wrong. I asked you several times if you held the heretical view of open theism though.

 

TS, I have avoided giving you a multiple choice question but since you won't give an answer that actually has relevance to the question, please choose one of the answers above... or else give another legitimate choice.

 

BTW TS, you made a great point down in CE's concerning Roe v Wade.

 

I hit enter before I was finished:

Scott -

Here is your answer, but I truly believe you've closed your eyes and ears and heart to the truth so I doubt you'll accept it.

Deuteronomy 30:11 to the end of the chapter which says the Word is in us, we have to choose between Loving God and death.
*We have a choice, and before you discount Deuteronomy - remember how often Christ quoted it.*

All have sinned.
God calls to all men today, just as He called to them in Deuteronomy. Today - our choice is Christ or damnation. He calls us all, He frees us all to make the choice.

John 3:35 "The Father loves the Son and and has placed everything in his hands. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejectsthe Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
*If you "reject" Christ. Active verb. Remains - We are born in sin, we are offered Christ, if we reject Christ, God stays angry, if we accept Christ God forgives. Simple concept. NOT - we are born in sin and God is so angry that he only lets a few accept Christ. WE REJECT. EVERYONE who goes to hell REJECTED Christ, it isn't that they were not called, or that they were not free to accept, they REJECTED*

Matthew 7:7 "Ask and it will be given to you. Seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
*Active verbs. ASK, SEEK, KNOCK. You say we can't seek Him. He spoke to men who were lost when He spoke those words.*

Matthew 9:12-13 "On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: I desire mercy, not scarifice. For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
*God desires mercy. God came for sinners*

Matthew 10:32 "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will acknowledge him before my father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my father in heaven."
*Whoever does/whoever doesn't. But beyond that - - He will DISOWN us, not He will not allow us join his family, but rather He will remove us from his family. We hear Him calling, if we fail to respond, THEN He rejects us. You have the cart before the horse in your teaching.*

Matthew 18:6 "But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
*I should have highlighed "anyone". God will punish you if you cause a child to sin. If ~YOU~ cause it. This is man's sin, not God's.*

Matthew 18:12 and on
"What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the 99 on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the 99 that did not wander off. In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.
*That was Christ saying that God isn't willing for even 1 to be lost, and you basically call Christ a liar when you say that He doesn't "free" some to be saved.*

Matthew 23:13 "Woe to you teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
*YOU --- humans, pharisees, teachers... YOU shut the door, not God, humans.*

Matthew 28:18 "Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Mark 16:15 He said to them, "Got into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and in baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
*Believe and you WILL be saved. Don't believe and you WILL be condemned - FUTURE tenses. *

Luke 5:31 "Jesus answered them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentence."

Luke 7:48-50 Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven." The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?" Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
*Not "the faith I allowed you express." Simply and straightforward "your faith".*

Luke 10:16 "He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."
*Active verbs, not passive. Responsibilty is on individual to accept or reject.*

Luke 12:8 "I tell you whoever acknowledges mebefore men, the Son of Man will also acknowlege him before the angels of God. But he who disowns me before men will bedisowned before the angels of God. And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgive, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven."
*ALL future tenses. All cause and effect.*

Luke 15:7 "I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous persons who do not need to repent."
*Why? If you're right - if God already decided who could or couldn't repent - why would the heaven's rejoice?*

Luke 15:10 "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."
*Again - why? And also - how CAN a sinner repent by your theories?*

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the World to Condemn the world, but to save the world. Whoever believes in him is not condemended, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.


Mark 3:28-30 "I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blashphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin. He said this because they were saying "He has an evil spirit."
*Telling lies about the Holy Spirit is unforgiveable.*

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and belives him who sent me has eternal life, and will not be condemnded; he has crossed over from death to life."
*He crossed over, he made a change, he made a choice, he believed.*

For those who claim I'm wrong to expect God to be fair, Christ speaking, John 5:30 "By myslef I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgement is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me."

John 5:39 (LOOK CAREFULLY AT CAUSE AND EFFECT) You dilgenelty study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
*You refuse to come to me. The burden is BACK on the sinner.*

John 6:26 Jesus answered, "I tell you teh truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs, but because you ate the loaves and had yoru fill. Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval. Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the words God requires." Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.
*Our job, our duty, our work is belief. THAT is the condition of salvation. The "work" you say God doesn't require is, according to Christ Himself - the one work that IS required.*

John 6:35 "Then Jesus declared, I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty .
*Active verbs*

John 6:49 "It is written in the Prophets; They will all be taught by God. Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me."
*God teaches all, those who listen to God, and learn from God will come to Christ. Again, the burden is on us.*

John 11:25 "Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies. And whoever lieves and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" "Yes Lord," she told him. "I believe you are the Christ, the Son of God, who has come into the world."
*Believe*

John 12:44 Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. When he looks to me, he sees the one who sent me. I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in the darkness. As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day."

*There it is again - rejection, failure to accept*

 

TexasSky: Again, I ask you to look at context: You said:

“John 3:35 "The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
*If you "reject" Christ. Active verb. Remains - We are born in sin, we are offered Christ, if we reject Christ, God stays angry, if we accept Christ God forgives. Simple concept. NOT - we are born in sin and God is so angry that he only lets a few accept Christ. WE REJECT. EVERYONE who goes to hell REJECTED Christ, it isn't that they were not called, or that they were not free to accept, they REJECTED* “

In context: This is John the Baptist speaking of Jesus. Notice v. 3:32 “What He (Jesus) has seen and heard, of that He bears witness; and no man receives His witness” (No man receives His witness!). This is repeating a theme John (the beloved disciple and author of the book) has used before in 3:11: (Jesus says) “Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak that which we know, and bear witness of that which we have see; and you do not receive our witness” Do you see the connection between John 3:32 and John 3:11?

Now, what has Jesus just said (what He “witnessed” to) prior to John 3:11? Look at v.8 “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know here it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit” Jesus is defining those who will believe and be born again as being born according to the will of the Spirit of God. This also defines the “whosoever” of John 3:16. It is a theme John has been developing since 1:11 “He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him (Do you see the connection?) (v.12) But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name (v.13) who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” In the Greek, the word “will of” follows through to “but of (the will of) God”. It is a clear statement of God actively bringing about the salvation of men according to His will. By the way, I once again point out to you the clear and definitive rejection of “freewill” theology, with the words “nor by the will of man”. It can mean nothing else!

Now, listen to the words of John 3:35 in context: “The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in His hands.” Do you believe the Word of God? This clearly says “everything” has been placed in the hands of the Son. Don’t you realize that “everything” includes the salvation of men? That is the context!!!(v.36)Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.” Don’t you see that all are already under the wrath of God? The wrath of God is already on all men, otherwise, John would not have said, “God’s wrath remains on him.” Wrath is already on men! The “whoever” believes has been defined by Christ Himself as those who are born again according to the will of the Spirit of God, and by John in 1:11-13 as those born of the will of God. Yes, there is “accepting” and “rejecting”, I have never denied that. I am only repeating scripture by saying it is not possible to accept unless you are “born again” by the Spirit of God.

Now, look further into John at 10:25-28: “Jesus answered them, ‘I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these bear witness of Me. (v.26) But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. (v.27) My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me: (v.28) and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand.’”

Do you see the connection? The Father has placed “everything” in His hands. This specifically includes (by context and not by implication) the salvation of men. Jesus told these men the reason they don’t believe is because they are not of His sheep. He didn’t say anything about them rejecting of their own freewill. He said they weren’t His sheep. He knows His sheep and they know His voice. When He calls they follow (without fail!!!) because they are His sheep. They were His sheep before He called them. He didn’t asked them to accept Him or reject Him. He calls, they accept and they come!! Because they are His. The others are not. It is all in His hands!

I hope you can see this verse in context. I will not respond to all that you have written. I would rather look at one verse at a time.

 

I will accept it when you actually give it TS.

You keep dealing with the means. Do people make a choice to accept or reject? I have consistently said "yes".

You keep asking questions that were never asked. I have to wonder if it is because you don't understand the question or instinctively know that your system of belief cannot give an answer that is compatible with biblical truth.

Once again, I am not asking if or how some people believe while others do not. I am asking you to give an answer to "Why?" some believe while others don't.

Forget the methods and means for a moment and go to cause, to motive. Some people act on a good motive while others act on bad motives. What is the source of that motive within an individual?

Please don't accuse me of ignoring your answer again. I understand your answer. It simply isn't an answer to the question that was asked. Just answer the simple question "Why?".

At this point, I have even given you two choices that do answer the question and invited you to add any others you can think of:

a) People are not spiritually dead. They are only marred or tainted by sin. There is some good within them that causes and enables some to believe while others reject.

b) People are spiritually dead in their own trespasses and sins. They are totally depraved- at enmity with God. God graciously regenerates them according to His divine plan giving them a new nature that is free and "naturally" inclined to accept and believe.

As I have said, I don't know of any other possible answers. If you do then please feel free to add them... so long as they actually answer the question. Oh, there is possibly a third view that you could ascribe to the RCC. Goodness comes from the institution of the Church.

BTW, as well as I understand it, the first two answers are basically the dividing point between calvinism and arminianism.

 

Continuing problem with our beliefs? Wow. And yet God still allows us to live.

What is actually a dangerous deception is to exhibit the giant and inflated egos that you both seem to have. (And yet God lets YOU live). This is the most dangerous deception of all and speaks not that highly of your faith.

At least I see humility in TS's statements. There is nothing hateful or wicked in her statements(and if you think that is...might want to get out more and see real hate and wickedness).

There is no problem with my relationship with God through Jesus Christ. I dont ignore or twist scripture. There are plenty of things I have SAID I DO NOT UNDERSTAND. There is very little that is clear about scripture, and frankly, you and that other guy beating this topic into the ground - are not really clearing anything up. Well of course except how wonderful YOU are and how wicked and hateful everyone else is. Not a real good Christian attribute by the way and reminds me of school children.

Furthermore it is absolutely none of your business what my relationship is based on - and until it does, might want to reflect on your own life. Nobody is claiming to be perfect...well not everybody. Talk about breathtaking..

 

I notice that neither Scott or JD want to discuss Deuteronomy.

And JD. What you posted doesn't change the meaning at all.

Who are God's children? Who are Christ's sheep? The people who listen to His voice.

You assume they were His sheep first.
I assume they are His sheep BECAUSE they listen to his voice.

 

You're kidding right? You see humility in falsely accusing someone of beliefs that they don't hold? You see nothing hateful nor wicked in persistently putting words in someone else's mouth even after being corrected in detail?

You need to re-read the thread.

As for being proud or whatever else you think, I have done my best to answer TS's objections and questions one by one. Even when she repeats the same objections, I have remained patient with her. The only time I became impatient is when she kept falsely insisting that I believed something that I don't.

 

I notice that you still don't want to answer that very simple, direct question I asked.

You gave the Deut text in response to this question. I did respond by pointing out that whether people have a choice or not isn't the question. The question was, and still is, why do the choose as they do.

Why won't you give an honest direct answer to this question?

Please cite where the Bible says that the sheep choose their shepherd. Please cite where the Israelites were God's people because they first chose Him.

No need to assume anything. The text does not say "Some sheep choose to follow me, hear my voice, and become my sheep". It says that "His sheep hear His voice and follow"... nothing at all about their following being caused by their choice.

 

Still don't want to discuss it TS?

I made it easy by giving you two (or 3) choices. The question couldn't be clearer.

Could it be that you know the implications of the answer your system of belief requires you to give?

 

TexasSky

Concerning the passage you quoted from Deut., you said "Tell me again that God "doesn't give you a choice". That is isn't biblical. That I am a HERETIC for telling people that God tells them, "Here are your choices, life or death, choose."'

Niether I nor Scott have said God doesn't require a choice. We have consistently said that unless God changes you first, you will not be able to choose life. Again, I wish you would read the context of these passages.

Deut. 29:29 "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law."

The "choice" Moses is urging them to make is in keeping the law of the covenant. We know they failed, as all men do, when they tried to keep the law. The Old Testament Law served it's purpose, which was to reveal our sinfulness, and show us the need for grace (unmerited favor) through Christ.

Deut. 31:16; "And the LORD said to Moses, 'Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them'"

They failed to keep the Law of the Covenant, and God allowed/caused them to be overthrown and carried off into slavery. But the Law served it's purpose, and continues to do so to this day.

Now, I have addressed Deut. I would like for you to address John 1:13 which says those who would believe on Jesus were born "nor of the will of man", but of "the will of God."

This clearly refutes "freewill" theology. "nor by the will of man" is very clear that salvaion doesn't come through our own wills. "by the will of God" clearly supports the doctrine that God is actively involved in bringing about the salvation of men.

 

emeraldctyangel

You said (among other things) "There is very little that is clear about scripture"

That is incorrect. Scripture is clear. Your, and TexasSky's, willingness to accept it (or not in this case) is also clear.

This thread is about "grace". I see "unmerited" favor. You/TexasSky see God looking into the future, learning something He didn't know (who would accept) and base His choice of salvation on that "merit". That is twisting scripture and the plain meaning of words.

I don't pretend to make your relationship with God any of my business. It seems to me that you were the person who brought your relationship with God into this conversation, as the basis by which you interpret scripture (since very little scripture is understandable to you).

I was simply trying to show you how dangerous that is and how easy it can lead to a false understanding of scripture, in this case, a false understanding of grace.

Apparently, you have been offended by my comments. I offer my apology, as I never intended to make this conversation personal. I continue to urge you and TexasSky to try to understand scripture in its context. If I did not have Christian love for you both, I would have abandoned this effort long ago.

I had to put aside my bias and approach scripture with an open mind. The position I have reached on this issue is the only one that considers and remains true to the whole counsel of God in context(not just a verse here and there out of context), and maintains a correct understanding of all the divine attributes of our Lord.

I am willing to discuss scripture with anyone. Please, choose one scripture verse, let us discuss it in context without calling each other names, and see if we can come to an agreement on the meaning.

If we cannot, then at least we wrestled with scripture, hoping to understand it more fully.