Is it really SIN to be angry with God ?

Artimaeus ........You are not reading what I have written. Read # 4 again. I never said it was right. I said it is normal and it is our perception that needs correcting. But UNLESS we are honest with those FEELINGS of injustice whether they be from
" God " or others. We can never deal with them properly and in a healthy way so we will not have right relationships with God and others, unless we do.

Remember my example of little boys who are told they must NEVER cry. They NEVER learn to deal with their emotions, so they become distructive unhealthy ANGRY men !

There are alot of Christians walking around with lots of anger at God or others because it is Christians like you who say it is WRONG to be angry at God and it is WRONG to question God. So they remain stuck or just walk out completely, at least emotionally. I know I've been there !

Consider this statement by a Pastor....

Misunderstanding, disagreement, and conflict are inevitable in any relationship, especially one in which a sinful human being tries to relate to an invisible God in a fallen world. thus, if we want to have an honest and intimate relationship with God we need to be willing to " wrestle with God."...Among the Christians I work with in counseling, it has been my experience that those who are willing to honestly wrestle with God by confronting, questioning, or even complaining to him about the pain and injustice they experience are the ones who develop the most intimate relationship with him.

Ephesians 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

Colossians 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.


Anger has no place in the life of a Christian. I think Adam Clarke gave a good explanation of the Eph. 4:26:

Be ye angry, and sin not] orgizesqe, here, is the same as ei men orgizesqe, IF YE be angry, do not sin. We can never suppose that the apostle delivers this as a precept, if we take the words as they stand in our version. Perhaps the sense is, Take heed that ye be not angry, lest ye sin; for it would be very difficult, even for an apostle himself, to be angry and not sin. If we consider anger as implying displeasure simply, then there are a multitude of cases in which a man may be innocently, yea, laudably angry; for he should be displeased with every thing which is not for the glory of God, and the good of mankind. But, in any other sense, I do not see how the words can be safely taken.

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As I have said before there is SELFISH Anger and a RIGHTEOUS anger.

Anger that is a result of not gettings ones own way, that is manifested through jealousy, envy, covetousness et. IS WRONG no one would disagree.

Anger that is manesfiested through INJUSTICE which is known as Righteous anger is a healthy God given anger. When we feel wronged either by God or others it is not SIN to question, be perplexed and upset at that wrong doing. To say you have never questioned injustice done torwards you by others ( which by the way God allowed ), I would have to say you would be a liar.
You cannot seperate Righteous anger torwards God different from those against others. They both are the same. INJUSTICE ! God allows everything to happen to us right ?

Now to be angry at God for not getting ones way or we think he is being mean or any other selfish reason is WRONG.

Lets say you had a child and that child was kidnapped, raped and murdered ( that isn't my case, just an example ) You would be ANGRY even at God how can you not. I don't care how spirit filled and how well you were walking with God, you may for a time question the INJUSTICE of that crime, what good could possibly come out of such a heinous senseless crime against an innocent person. It will take certain steps in order to hopefully move on. one of those steps WILL be ANGER.

This is a fact. I wish what I was saying wasn't true but it is. Christians can continue to live in their selfrighteous box and go around telling others how and what they should " FEEL " but they do not realize they hurt others in the process by doing that.

I am so glad God is so much bigger than we are and doesn't take things personal. He can handle our anger.

Originally posted by RightFromWrong:
Artimaeus ........You are not reading what I have written. Read # 4 again. I never said it was right.

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What you said was:

I do not think it is wrong to QUESTION, be UPSET ( Upset means angry ) or even yell at God

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What I am saying is that it IS wrong to question, be upset, and/or yell at God because He is innocent of the false charges being brought against Him.

I said it is normal...

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I agree that it is normal, typical, common, and very nearly universal but that does not make it right. We all sin in one way or another. It is normal, typical, common, and completely universal but that does not make it right.

and it is our perception that needs correcting.

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Yes, when we are angry at God, it is our perception that He is somehow wrong, at fault, messed up, or made a mistake that needs to be corrected.

But UNLESS we are honest with those FEELINGS of injustice whether they be from " God " or others. We can never deal with them properly and in a healthy way so we will not have right relationships with God and others, unless we do.

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Of course you must be honest about your feelings even when those feelings are inappropriate. The feelings are real. It is the injustice that isn't real. It is imagined, false, and delusional. You cannot even begin to build a healthy relationship with God until you have dealt with your real and honest delusions.

Artimaeus.... I'm sorry you don't get it. everyone I talk to do, including my Pastor. So we are all wrong and you are right

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. (KJV)

Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord. (NAS)

Wrath, which is the word for anger in the passages in my first post, clearly belongs to God. When we get angry, we are putting ourselves in God's place.

Yes, I get angry at injustice and unrighteousness and personal affronts, but the Scriptures are clear, anger belongs to God. When I get angry I am sinning, and it is a sign that I have little faith in what God told me in Romans 12:19.

Honestly, if one had faith to believe Romans 12:19, to believe that God really is looking out for His own and will for injustices, where could anger and bitterness find a root in the heart of a Christian? Anger is accompanied by a host of sins: unbelief, impatience, arrogance, impulsiveness, evil speaking ("gosh darn" just doesn't get the anger out) etc.

RightFromWrong is wrong. Yes, God's a big God. Yes, He can handle anything, but He will handle it according to truth and righteousness, which should have everyone shaking in their boots.

Aaron for the last time. Anger is an EMOTION, what you DO with that anger becomes SIN.

Revenge and wrath are outward manifestation to anger that is WRONG ! I never said it wasn't

You are totally misunderstanding what I am saying, if you do understand you are twisting it.

PLEASE REREAD what I wrote below

As I have said before there is SELFISH Anger and a RIGHTEOUS anger.

Anger that is a result of not gettings ones own way, that is manifested through jealousy, envy, covetousness et. IS WRONG no one would disagree.

Anger that is manesfiested through INJUSTICE which is known as Righteous anger is a healthy God given anger. When we feel wronged either by God or others it is not SIN to question, be perplexed and upset at that wrong doing. To say you have never questioned injustice done torwards you by others ( which by the way God allowed ), I would have to say you would be a liar.
You cannot seperate Righteous anger torwards God different from those against others. They both are the same. INJUSTICE ! God allows everything to happen to us right ?

Now to be angry at God for not getting ones way or we think he is being mean or any other selfish reason is WRONG.

Lets say you had a child and that child was kidnapped, raped and murdered ( that isn't my case, just an example ) You would be ANGRY even at God how can you not. I don't care how spirit filled and how well you were walking with God, you may for a time question the INJUSTICE of that crime, what good could possibly come out of such a heinous senseless crime against an innocent person. It will take certain steps in order to hopefully move on. one of those steps WILL be ANGER.

This is a fact. I wish what I was saying wasn't true but it is. Christians can continue to live in their selfrighteous box and go around telling others how and what they should " FEEL " but they do not realize they hurt others in the process by doing that.

I am so glad God is so much bigger than we are and doesn't take things personal. He can handle our anger.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By the way I never used the word bitterness or bitter you did. I am talking about a feeling
( anger ) which is God given that when injustice happens wants to RIGHT a WRONG in a healthy way. Not in a revengeful way. GET IT !

RFW, I agree that anger is a natural reaction to being wronged, but "natural" is not always right or good because we still are in our fallen nature. We are told to be self-controlled.

We all FEEL God has wronged us at times, even though he really hasn't. Since his ways are greater than our ways. But I think we have all felt that way.

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You also assume that everyone has been angry at God. This is not true. I have never felt angry at God and I have had some really hard things happen to me, including other Christians being mean to me. Yes, I have been angry with them but the problem with this kind of anger is that it quickly grows into resentment and then bitterness. The idea that anger is healthy and we should vent is from modern psychology, not the Bible.

I think that biblically we should acknowledge that anger to ourselves, and then to God, and ask Him to give us the ability to forgive whoever has made us angry before this anger turns into resentment or bitterness (and lovingly confront the brother or sister if they have sinned against us as directed by Matt. 18). Venting does not help - sometimes it just fans the flames.

Righteous anger is from righteous people and I think we rarely have it. But that is not the same thing as being angry at God at all.

As far as being angry at God -- I just don't see it. I agree with Artimeus and Aaron on what they've said on this. Being angry at God is assuming God has wronged you which assumes God has done something wrong. I also think such anger comes from a part of ourselves that has not understood or accepted who God is. It reveals something else that is wrong beneath the anger (at God). In other words, if someone is angry at God, then it reveals a problem in their walk with God or in their view of him.

The prevention for this is making a habit of praising and thanking God every day.

No one has answered me about how they would honestly feel if they had lost a child, or many loved ones in a row died, or had a child kidnapped raped and murdered et. THINK ABOUT IT.

Even my Pastor said he has been angry at God. maybe none of you have had enough injustice done to you in your life. I have, before I was saved, starting from day one, and after. I was told I have been through more in my life than people in third world countries, I've been told I should write a book. When we moved up here 2 1/2 years ago I was looking for a Christian counselor. I had presented all my history both before I was saved and what I went through after, especially 5 years in a row worth of Hell. She was so devistated by what she read she told the secretary to tell me that I would need a specialist. She couldn't even tell me herself. NO I needed someone to point me back to Biblical truths and who would be there for me to see me through my pain. God had left me I was sure of it. ( I know he didn't really but that is how it felt at the time ) Even David felt like God left him. My pastor has felt like God has left him.

All I am saying is I knew BIBLICAL TRUTHS more than most Christians I have ever meet. But when you are tested like Job, most people ( Job I'd say was an exception ) do not have a clear Biblical pespective. Especially if you had been raised the way I was. You are hurting so bad and your feelings are VERY strong, magnified is the word. Feelings of rejection, betrayal, abandonment, inadequancy, injustice, that no amount of head knowledge can change that. The hardest was knowing that I did NOTHING wrong to deserve or cause such trials. When you know that God is the one who allowed it, ( and as far as I was concerned CAUSE it himself) yet you see no benifit or fruit or understanding of why. That can make anyone go crazy. I still do not have answers to many of my experenses and probably never will. I have learned though to not listen to those who say " you just have to get over it " or " Your not trusting God " or " Don't you know what the Bible says " I know that when someone is going through such pain they don't need scripture crammed down their throat, they need someone who will be there for them and walk them through the pain and when they are READY, when the time is right share what Gods perspective is.

You think you guys are going to be able to go to someone who just lost their child in anyway shape or form and say, well the Bible say this and the Bible says that. Are you going to tell them God has his reasons for allowing your child to die. No ! You'd be a fool to do that. Believe me at that time they are not thinking how loving and kind God is they are hurting and want answers. ONLY TIME will tell when they are ready to look to God and get healing in their lives.

Another sad fact is and I can see from your guys answers is MOST people do not know how to deal with hurting Christians. I went to 5 counselors during those 6 years and ONLY one was somewhat decent. My Pastor NOW is the only one who was RIGHT ON. Why was he RIGHT ON because he knew what I was going through and he knew how to counsel me with out judging me. Unlike the others he was able to combine, Compassion, insightful understanding, prayer, patience, no mumbo jumbo hocus pocus bs, and when I was ready for it Gods word. ABOVE ALL he was able to help me understand I wasn't the only one, who dealt with such injustice from other Christians, circumstances et. He said some of the most used Chrisitans are those who God puts through the fire so to speak. Moses, David, Job, Joesph, and so on. He had to go through 5 years of about the same things I went through, he knew a Godly Pastor who went through horrible injustice from his congregation all because he stood for Gods word. ( he was new to the church ) The fact that he said ( which none of the others counselors ahd done ) That God wanted to use me in a greater way, was extremely helpful in itself, I knew that deep down but no one but he had told me that.

Anyway I think it was especially hard for me, since I didn't have a loving upbringing as these guys had. I have been abandoned by 3 mothers and hurt/abused and rejected by 2. I've been in 2 foster homes at 6 and 17, and a father who abused me physically and emotionally ( not sexually thank god ) That is just part of the story. So when I went through 5 years of nonstop trials from other Christians and weird circumstances, it all brought up my past. A loving caring father figure in God was not what I saw.

Don't get me wrong when i first got saved I went through many trials as a new christian again more than most I was even almost raped and murdered, but my faith was strong and i looked to God all the way through each trial. One of the big differences was I had a new Christian FAMILT that supported me ALL the way. When I went through the 5 years of Hell, I had no one there for me,( actually a few NONchristian friends ) even my own Husband didn't know what to do and he was part of the problem he had no back bone. Anyway see the difference. I think it is amazing in itself I am still alive , still sain, still going to church and still know God loves me and has a plan for me.

I didn't want to write all this as it is a very personal story, but felt that there is where my understanding comes from about this subject. Christians NEED this understanding that for a healthy relationship God wants us to be honest about our feelings, he wants us to ask questions to SEEK him no matter how we do it, so he can help us through our pain.

I just would hate for people to tell others that are hurting to just get over it, don't you know what the Bible says about what you are feeling ! Give me a break, please don't do that next time someone is in need of a friend, see him as God would see him.

[ September 05, 2005, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

By the way MARCIA I think you did the best in explaining your points in a compassionate way. You made the most sense to me.

I do understand where you guys are all comming from. Don't get me wrong.

But I think it is more important to see where GOD IS COMMING FROM. I do not see God chastising a Christian who questions him and is even angry at times with him for the injustice he allows in their life. I see a patient loving God who want to heal and help us.

Guess thats my bottom line. My own Pastor gets it why can't you ?

No one has answered me about how they would honestly feel if they had lost a child, or many loved ones in a row died, or had a child kidnapped raped and murdered et. THINK ABOUT IT.

Even my Pastor said he has been angry at God. maybe none of you have had enough injustice done to you in your life. I have, before I was saved, starting from day one, and after. I was told I have been through more in my life than people in third world countries, I've been told I should write a book. When we moved up here 2 1/2 years ago I was looking for a Christian counselor. I had presented all my history both before I was saved and what I went through after, especially 5 years in a row worth of Hell. She was so devistated by what she read she told the secretary to tell me that I would need a specialist. She couldn't even tell me herself. NO I needed someone to point me back to Biblical truths and who would be there for me to see me through my pain. God had left me I was sure of it. ( I know he didn't really but that is how it felt at the time ) Even David felt like God left him. My pastor has felt like God has left him.

All I am saying is I knew BIBLICAL TRUTHS more than most Christians I have ever meet. But when you are tested like Job, most people ( Job I'd say was an exception ) do not have a clear Biblical pespective. Especially if you had been raised the way I was. You are hurting so bad and your feelings are VERY strong, magnified is the word. Feelings of rejection, betrayal, abandonment, inadequancy, injustice, that no amount of head knowledge can change that. The hardest was knowing that I did NOTHING wrong to deserve or cause such trials. When you know that God is the one who allowed it, ( and as far as I was concerned CAUSE it himself) yet you see no benifit or fruit or understanding of why. That can make anyone go crazy. I still do not have answers to many of my experenses and probably never will. I have learned though to not listen to those who say " you just have to get over it " or " Your not trusting God " or " Don't you know what the Bible says " I know that when someone is going through such pain they don't need scripture crammed down their throat, they need someone who will be there for them and walk them through the pain and when they are READY, when the time is right share what Gods perspective is.

You think you guys are going to be able to go to someone who just lost their child in anyway shape or form and say, well the Bible say this and the Bible says that. Are you going to tell them God has his reasons for allowing your child to die. No ! You'd be a fool to do that. Believe me at that time they are not thinking how loving and kind God is they are hurting and want answers. ONLY TIME will tell when they are ready to look to God and get healing in their lives.

Another sad fact is and I can see from your guys answers is MOST people do not know how to deal with hurting Christians. I went to 5 counselors during those 6 years and ONLY one was somewhat decent. My Pastor NOW is the only one who was RIGHT ON. Why was he RIGHT ON because he knew what I was going through and he knew how to counsel me with out judging me. Unlike the others he was able to combine, Compassion, insightful understanding, prayer, patience, no mumbo jumbo hocus pocus bs, and when I was ready for it Gods word. ABOVE ALL he was able to help me understand I wasn't the only one, who dealt with such injustice from other Christians, circumstances et. He said some of the most used Chrisitans are those who God puts through the fire so to speak. Moses, David, Job, Joesph, and so on. He had to go through 5 years of about the same things I went through, he knew a Godly Pastor who went through horrible injustice from his congregation all because he stood for Gods word. ( he was new to the church ) The fact that he said ( which none of the others counselors ahd done ) That God wanted to use me in a greater way, was extremely helpful in itself, I knew that deep down but no one but he had told me that.

Anyway I think it was especially hard for me, since I didn't have a loving upbringing as these guys had. I have been abandoned by 3 mothers and hurt/abused and rejected by 2. I've been in 2 foster homes at 6 and 17, and an adopted father who abused me physically and emotionally ( not sexually thank god ) That is just part of the story. So when I went through 5 years of nonstop trials from other Christians and weird circumstances, it all brought up my past. A loving caring father figure in God was not what I saw.

Don't get me wrong when I first got saved I went through many trials as a new christian again more than most I was even almost raped and murdered, but my faith was strong and I looked to God all the way through each trial. One of the big differences was I had a new Christian FAMILY that supported me ALL the way. When I went through the 5 years of Hell, I had no one there for me,( actually just a few NONchristian friends, I have no real family, but my husband and kids ) even my own Husband didn't know what to do and he was part of the problem he had no back bone, to stand up for injustice. Anyway see the difference. I think it is amazing in itself I am still alive , still sain, still going to church and still know God loves me and has a plan for me.

I didn't want to write all this as it is a very personal story, but I felt that this is where my understanding comes from about this subject. Christians NEED this understanding in order for a healthy relationship and to help others. God wants us to be honest about our feelings, he wants us to ask questions to SEEK him no matter how we do it, so he can help us through our pain.

I just would hate for people to tell others that are hurting to "just get over it ", " don't you know what the Bible says about what you are feeling" ! Give me a break, please don't do that next time someone is in need of a friend, see him as God would see him.

[ September 05, 2005, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

RightFromWrong wrote,

My own Pastor gets it why can't you ?

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You are probably misunderstanding your pastor because your posts make it appear that he has confused God with Santa Claus. And you are right—a whole lot of two-year-olds do get angry with Santa Claus. But God is perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness—and those who are Christians know God personally and they KNOW that God is perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness—and therefore it is NOT possible for them to question God or get angry with Him. Santa Claus, on the other hand, ….

RFW,

We can only tell you what we see in the Scriptures about the subject. Your only argument is that since it comes "naturally" and is beyond your control, then it must be right.

This I do know, if anyone on the face of this earth got a bum rap, it was Christ. If there were any who might claim righteous ground to be angry with God for the suffering he had to unjustly endure, it was Christ, but nowhere do we find Him being angry at God for it. We see a man wholly yielded to the will of His Father. We see a man who when he was reviled, reviled not again, when he suffered, he threatened not, but committed himself to Him who judges righteously. If God spared not His own Son, and His Son took it so patiently, what right do you have to demand an explanation, or to throw your insolence in His face?

I don't care how many dead babies you tally up, how many grandmas get robbed, how many teens get raped, how many Jews get burned in ovens, a greater crime than the murder of God's Son cannot be committed, and we see how Christ responded to the injustice.

Go thou and do likewise.

Originally posted by RightFromWrong:
Artimaeus.... I'm sorry you don't get it. everyone I talk to do, including my Pastor. So we are all wrong and you are right

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Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

G988 βλασφημία blasphēmia blas-fay-me'-ah
vilification (especially against God): - blasphemy, evil speaking, railing.

Vilifying God, making Him out to be the bad guy, saying He has done something wrong, speaking evil of Him is the absolute height of basphemy.

Disagreeing with me is of no importance. Jesus Christ Himself said that blasphemy was an evil thing. Railing against God is blasphemy and blasphemy is a sin.

I am sorry that you don't get it. You would all be wrong and Jesus Christ would be right. I don't matter, just ask anyone.

I have been angry and questioned God before. He created me with feelings. Yes I've stifled it and asked forgiveness when I have done it. But my immediate feelings I have shared with Him. I think He knew them anyway.

RFW,

Ive lost a child.

And I can tell you that I do not believe God would have been pleased with me if I had become angry at Him.

Read Job.

Job questioned God, without being angry at Him, and God chastised Job for it somewhat.

Now, I would not go to a person who had lost their child and try to convince them out of their anger. You can only be there to comfort and to offer any support you can give. It is unwise to try to quote Bible verses at them in the beginning.
However, if they let that anger take hold in their heart than they need something to shake them out of it. And Im talking about letting it take hold in their heart for a long time....not a momentary flash of anger. That momentary flash is a normal part of the grief process. But if someone gets stuck there than they need help getting beyond it.

I think that probably your pastor is expressing his understanding of the anger, I do not believe he is saying that God would consider it to be alright. There are some things that we understand, but they are still sinful when INDULGED in. The momentary anger, the flash of emotion, thats understandable and God probably would overlook that. BUT, the holding onto that anger, the seething against God, the questioning and presumption that we know better than the Almighty, THAT is what I think the rest of us in here are speaking to.

Craig..... I didn't misunderstand my Pastor, we both agreed that it IS WRONG to be angry at anyone for selfish reasons, even God. It wasn't wrong to be angry for righteous reasons, feelings of injustice, and it wasn't wrong to QUESTION God. Job was the only example of God rebuking someone for questioning him, he never rebuked, Moses, Davis, Jeremiah, Paul, or anyone else for that matter. And by the way I am not Job and I'm sure Job had a better growing up than I did.

Jesus KNEW why he came to earth he knew he came to die, He knew why things were happing to him and what the SOURCE was. Big difference !
At the time I didn't understand what was happening I didn't know if it was me, others or God. See the difference.

I and my Pastor NEVER blasphemied God, I never rejected God and his word if I had I wouldn't be here today talking to you Stop tryin to put what I am saying into the catagories of SIN
evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:


You guys are very mean spirited and do not see the love of God and God forbid any of you ever try to be a help to anyone. just keep your mouth shut as you would only hurt that person with your self righteous attitudes.


There is no sense talking to you guys all you want to do is argue, I have made my pionts very clear others get it why can't you. Oh yeah I know why Pharisees attitude that is why. But what should I expect for those misinterpet Gods word.

By the way neither of you guys Craig, Aaron, Artimaeus NEVER answered my question on how you would feel if you had a child, wife, sister, mother, kidnapped raped and murdered. I'm sure you would be praising God all the way right ?

bapmom ..... Obviously you haven't read all my post where I explain that anger is part of a process of LOSS. I NEVER said it was ok to STAY angry, And I have never been so angry I have sinned. I too am talking about momentary anger. My Pastor shared the same thing, we have never forsaken God in the process therefore we obviously never had long term anger, maybe long term questioning. It really isn't that hard to undersatnd what I am saying. These guys want to make what I am saying worse than it is.

Thats ok though I know God knows what I am talking about, he is telling me its ok. These are the kinds of fools who keep hurting my children, they have no understanding or compassion, they just like to stuff all their feelings inside. Their anger comes out in other unhealthy ways. If only they would just talk to me about those feeling I know them already so why not just share them with me so I can heal them.

Bapmom write....Ive lost a child.

And I can tell you that I do not believe God would have been pleased with me if I had become angry at Him.


See thats where you are wrong ! First you are going to tell me when you lost you child ( how old was it ? ) that you never questioned God on why ? If you say you never did you are LYING.

You are also wrong that God would be upset with you. I don't know what kind of God you all know ? but, he wouldn't be upset with you at all ! thats what I am saying. He hurts when we hurt, he feels our pain, he understands our frustration and anger. WHY WOULDN'T HE HE IS THE ONE GAVES US THOSE EMOTIONS TO BEGIN WITH.

You all don't serve the same God i do. Your God is mean and judgmental.