Frederick K.C. Price

I agree with little of what he says...seems he'a always making excuses for being rich. But I liked his denunciation of "Black Muslims" in which he reminded people that Muhammed was a WHITE man & that he did NOT set forth any special religion for dark-skinned people & that those who proclaimed Islam as "the black man's religion" were only fooling themselves.

Originally posted by Johnv:
I think it's safe to say that a quote here and a quote there don't a heretic make, since those quotes typically lack context.

In my limited exposure to Price, I've never heard anything that is overtly unscriptural, especially in the context of a whole sermon. I've heard things that are just plain silly (like his claim that oral sex is a sin). But unscriptural? I have yet to hear it.

It would help greatly if the quotes people have used are put in their entire context.

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Johnv---keep listening---you won't hear it all in one 20 minute edited edition sermon(sorry excuse for exegesis he makes)---but there's a danger when we chose to "keep listening", though!---its not safe!!! Listeners will find themselves being sucked into the vortex of the black hole created by bad, bad exegesis!

Frederick Price is one of the many Word Faith teachers and teaches heresy such as Jesus having to go to hell to fight Satan to pay for our sin, instead of "it is finished" said by Jesus on the cross being true. I am continually amazed at the defense by Baptists here of Word Faith teachers (sometimes WF is called "positive confession" or "name it and claim it"). There is a deadly philosophy behind this thinking. Of course Price says some things that are true, and some things that are good. All WF teachers do that. But that does not absolve them of their false statements.

Price claims Kenneth Hagin, the "Father of the Word Faith Movement" was his biggest influence. That says a lot right there. Hagin taught the WF heresies -- God is not in control - he's locked out of creation by sin and must depend on man; Jesus had to fight Satan in hell; we are like God and can create with our words and thoughts; we don't ask for God's will; we wield our faith to get what we want and we deserve the best; etc., etc.

"Do you think that the punishment for our sin was to die on a cross? If that were the case, the two thieves could have paid your price. No, the punishment was to go into hell itself and to serve time in hell separated from God…Satan and all the demons of hell thought that they had Him bound and they threw a net over Jesus and dragged Him down to the very pit of hell itself to serve our sentence." (Frederick K.C. Price, Ever Increasing Faith Messanger (June 1980), 7.

“What they told me to do was that whenever I prayed I should always say, 'The will of the Lord be done.,' Now, doesn't that sound humble? It does. Sounds like humility, it's really stupidity. I mean, you know, really, we insult God. I mean, we really do insult our Heavenly Father. We do; we really insult Him without even realizing it. If you have to say, 'If it be thy will or' Thy will be done'-if you have to say that, then you're calling God a fool because he's the One that told us to ask.... (“Ever Increasing Faith” program on TBN Nov.16,1990).

The above quote is from 1990 but I have heard Price say the same thing with my own ears since then. This is pure mockery of God.

Word Faith is all about taking God and Christ down a notch and elevating man.

Price has added his own unique twists to Faith theology by asserting that Jesus took on the nature of Satan prior to the crucifixion34 and by claiming that the Lord's Prayer is not for Christians today.35 Despite telling his followers that he doesn't allow sickness in his home, Price's wife has been treated for cancer in her pelvic area.36 Referring to his wealth, Price says the reason he drives a Rolls Royce is that he is following in Jesus' steps.37
Footnotes:
34 Frederick K. C. Price, "Identification #3" (Inglewood, CA: Ever Increasing Faith Ministries, 1980), audio tape #FP545, side 1.
35 Frederick K. C. Price, personal correspondence, 14 October 1992.
36 Pat Hays, "Betty Price Speaks at 1991 'Wisdom from Above' Luncheon," Ever Increasing Faith Messenger, Winter 1992,12-13.
37 Frederick K. C. Price, Ever Increasing Faith (television program), TBN, 9 December 1990, available from Crenshaw Christian Center, Inglewood, CA (audio tape #CR-A2).
http://www.christianity.com/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID43667%7CCHID152162%7CCIID501846,00.html

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This has nothing to do with attacking character. It's about examining teachings according to the word of God. Sometimes, however, I think that doing that is viewed as a sin by some here.

Marcia wrote
Word Faith is all about taking God and Christ down a notch and elevating man.

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How true! uggg!

Marcia wrote
This has nothing to do with attacking character. It's about examining teachings according to the word of God. Sometimes, however, I think that doing that is viewed as a sin by some here.

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Yeah, I thought that was what we were supposed to do, examine teachings by God's Word? And only follow men that teach the actual Word? It doesn't matter how likable a man is.
I don't get that either, by saying someone's teachings are unbiblical when they are, that is sin?
It's strange that I was consumed by the so called 'Christian' tv channels when I was first saved and really liked alot of those guys. I thought they had to be right, they were preachers and on tv after all. God gave me enough wisdom to follow in my bible with everything they said, turned out they were way off base about alot of things. And on the very important issues too. I did not like finding that out at all. It was really hard for me to believe. Makes me ill now to think about what they preach on. It just takes listening to them and checking what they say and people will see they are mostly nuts.

The quotes that have been quoted for the most part have been said or written by Dr. Price; however, I believe that there has not been enough quoted to give the true meaning of Dr. Price's Biblical messages.

I want to quote from a book that was written by Dr. Price:

The dictionary defines gossipping as indulging in idle talk or rumors about others; backbiting means to speak maliciously or slanderously about an absent person. And a person with a "sharp: tongue is one who is unkind (for no reason) or unpleasant in his manner of speaking to others or one who is harshly critical. Whatever the definition, none of these characteristics should apply to a child of God. But rather, a Christian's manner of speech should always be seasoned with love, kindness, and concern as benefitting a follower of Jesus Christ:

Then he quotes scriptures to back his wording.

Another quote:

The Holy Spirit has been sent to assist the Body of Christ - the Church. He is our Comforter and Helper. Every Christian should be aware of what the Father God has provided for the Believer in and through the Third Person of the Trinity - the mighty Holy Spirit.

And he quotes scriptures to back this statement.

Originally posted by Thankful:
.....I believe that there has not been enough quoted to give the true meaning of Dr. Price's Biblical messages.

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Thankful,

How much more information do you need?

Originally posted by Thankful:
The quotes that have been quoted for the most part have been said or written by Dr. Price; however, I believe that there has not been enough quoted to give the true meaning of Dr. Price's Biblical messages.

I want to quote from a book that was written by Dr. Price:

The dictionary defines gossipping as indulging in idle talk or rumors about others; backbiting means to speak maliciously or slanderously about an absent person. And a person with a "sharp: tongue is one who is unkind (for no reason) or unpleasant in his manner of speaking to others or one who is harshly critical. Whatever the definition, none of these characteristics should apply to a child of God. But rather, a Christian's manner of speech should always be seasoned with love, kindness, and concern as benefitting a follower of Jesus Christ:

Then he quotes scriptures to back his wording.

Another quote:

The Holy Spirit has been sent to assist the Body of Christ - the Church. He is our Comforter and Helper. Every Christian should be aware of what the Father God has provided for the Believer in and through the Third Person of the Trinity - the mighty Holy Spirit.

And he quotes scriptures to back this statement.

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No doubt that Dr. Price makes truthful statements. However, some of his statements about God's sovereignty and control are just wrong. I will continue to pray "that God's will be done" against the advice of Dr. Price.

JefferyH, I don't need more information, but perhaps some others might need more information.

I can be inspired by this man because I know what I believe and I know in what areas I disagree with him just like I disagree with the beliefs of some of the members of this Board and the beliefs of some Baptist Ministers.

I will emphasize I am a Southern Baptist and have been one all my life, but this man can describe complicated scriptures in a simple way.

For example if I quote you:

"I will continue to pray...against the advice of Dr. Price" This changes the meaning of your quote by omitting important words.

Another point: I don't allow sickness into my home, but it comes uninvited.


Another quote from Dr. Price:

"Faith is the foundation of every Christian experience. It is impossible to be saved, baptized with the Holy Spirit, or to receive anything from God without faith. Believe, confess, act and receive is the faith formula. When we operate in faith, we can expect God to be there on our behalf to honor His Word even as He promised." (End of Quote)

Personally, I stand on the promises of God and I give him all the glory and praise. He is supreme and I am just a lowly sinner whom He has redeemed through the blood of the Lamb, my Savior, Jesus Christ. Any preacher, teacher, or person who can relate this message to the lost of the World is doing the Lord's Will.

When one discovers that they have been taught something incorrectly by their parents, do they decide then not to believe anything that their parents say? What about teachers?

The important word is discernment. Let the Lord lead you in understanding the Bible.

God places people and even television preachers in your life to guide you.

I find Some of Dr. Prices books very helpful, but from the posts on this thread, I can see that I have a different understanding of what he is saying. Many will think that I am wrong, but if I am helped to have a closer walk with my Lord, how can that be wrong?

By the way, Jeffrey H, I used to teach at Mesquite High School when there was only one high school. Mesquite has really grown. We still have some property there.

Originally posted by Thankful:
For example if I quote you:

Another quote from Dr. Price:

"Faith is the foundation of every Christian experience. It is impossible to be saved, baptized with the Holy Spirit, or to receive anything from God without faith. Believe, confess, act and receive is the faith formula. When we operate in faith, we can expect God to be there on our behalf to honor His Word even as He promised." (End of Quote)

Personally, I stand on the promises of God and I give him all the glory and praise. He is supreme and I am just a lowly sinner whom He has redeemed through the blood of the Lamb, my Savior, Jesus Christ. Any preacher, teacher, or person who can relate this message to the lost of the World is doing the Lord's Will.

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What Price means by faith and what you probably mean are not the same thing. Price is a Word Faith follower and teacher, and so when he says "faith" and "confess" he means something else. WF teachers teach that we use faith like a force (Copeland has even said this). Notice in the quote above that Price says the "faith forumula." They operate by formulas -- almost like magic. They believe that there are hidden spiritual laws that can be used to get God's "Blessings" (such as money) and we use those laws through the faith formulas. Anytime you see a phrase like "faith formula" a red flag should go up. This is not a biblical concept. I have heard Price and others many times; he has admitted to being a follower of the daddy of the word faith movement, Kenneth Hagin, and these people not only teach aberrant doctrine but outright heresies, such as I and others have posted here. What they teach is very similar to the occult -- there are hidden laws that we can learn to manipulate with esoteric knowledge (such as the faith formulas). They claim to know these laws and we are supposed to listen to them to learn them. It's very gnostic.

This has been documented by many. I first heard Kenneth Hagin on "Christian" radio when I was a brand new believer -- maybe 3 weeks old in the Lord. What he was teaching was what I had learned in the New Age and had heard at the Unity Church. I knew right off it was wrong even though I hardly knew the Bible, because at that point, finally, I knew the New Age was not truth.

Interesting response, Marcia. It almost sounds as if you think that Price, Hagin, Copeland and others that you have mentioned do not believe in the same God that we do.

Perhaps you would like to explain what he does mean by "faith" and "confess". You are correct I don't see any hidden meanings or hidden laws in his messages or even his books.

I know that there are some preachers who preach give money to receive more money. You know what I have seen that happen. The people did not give so that they would receive more money, but when they gave willingly to the Lord's work they were blessed in many ways.

How can Price's knowledge be esoteric when his church alone has 18,000 members?

Saying that his teachings are gnostic...Perhaps some are incorrect, but it seems that you are suggesting that his teachings are evil.

I understand that we, as Christians are supposed to be very careful of false teachings, but I think we should also be careful of what we say about another Christian who may be doing the Will of God even though we may not think that they are.

I understand that you had a bad experience in the New Age, and I can understand if you think anything is remotely like it, you would not want to have any part of it. And it is good that you are strong in your "faith and beliefs".

If you or I influence people incorrectly, then we are just as wrong as you say Price and his followers are. IMHO, we must be careful when we criticize others. I think it is more important that we tell what we believe, how Jesus saved us, How God has blessed us than to try to discredit others.

We are to tell others how to have eternal life and witness for our Lord and Savior.

Originally posted by Thankful:
Interesting response, Marcia. It almost sounds as if you think that Price, Hagin, Copeland and others that you have mentioned do not believe in the same God that we do.

Perhaps you would like to explain what he does mean by "faith" and "confess".

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Hello, Thankful,
First, let me say this: I never post something about someone's theology unless I am sure of what I am saying. This is well documented and researched. I have been studying the Word Faith movement off and on since I was a new believer because of my initial contact with it - and that was 14 yrs. ago. Not only that, but I have talked to people who have been in the WF churches and are in them. I am not alone in what I say about their teachings.

Do I believe their God is a different God than the God of the Bible? Well, Copeland's God is. Copeland says God (the Father) has a body. As for the others, even if their God is not different, they have an aberrant and unbiblical view of God. That's bad enough for me.

I explained "faith" in my post above. I can also post a lot of links to explain this better. By "confess" they mean you must say something with your mouth in order to create it or make it real. So you can't say negative things. But if say or "confess" a positive thing, such as "I am going to get a raise this year of $5,000" then it will happen, if you back it up with faith. If you don't get it, either you failed in confessing it or you confessed negative things or you did not have enough faith. They apply this to sickeness, too, because they do not believe any Christian should be sick. Here is where their teachings really hurt people. If you get cancer or your husband has a heart attack or whatever, it's your fault because you confessed something negative or you did not have enough faith. Many people are devastated when they lose a family member to illness in these churches and they leave, because they are told it was their loved one's fault for lack of faith. This actually happened to a friend of mine.

How can Price's knowledge be esoteric when his church alone has 18,000 members?

Saying that his teachings are gnostic...Perhaps some are incorrect, but it seems that you are suggesting that his teachings are evil.

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It doesn't matter how many are in the church -- the WF teachers claim they are teaching the spiritual laws, which basically rest on confessing, creating with your mouth, not thinking or confessing negative thoughts, using faith as a force, etc. They come up with new things all the time. Copeland's latest one is "translation" or "projection" which is being able to go out of your body to heal someone. And you are may not even be aware of this! Copeland said that this happened with Kenneth Hagin and he (Copeland) is doing it and pretty soon all believers will do this. These people have to constantly come up with supernatural type things in their teachings like this. They base this one on Philip and the Ethiopian.

Yes, I think all WF teachings are evil. I consider anyone who teaches that Jesus' death on the cross did not pay for sins, that God is bound by our words to do what we want, that faith is a force, that Jesus became the christ at baptism (copeland and others), that we create with our mouths, to be a false teacher. The reason I can say that is because the Bible tells me so.

I understand that we, as Christians are supposed to be very careful of false teachings, but I think we should also be careful of what we say about another Christian who may be doing the Will of God even though we may not think that they are.

I understand that you had a bad experience in the New Age, and I can understand if you think anything is remotely like it, you would not want to have any part of it. And it is good that you are strong in your "faith and beliefs".

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Thankful, my experience in the New Age has nothing to do with whether WF teachings are false or not. It only has to do with my recognition of that one thing that Hagin said on the radio and subsequent recognition that some of their teachings are very akin to New Age. I found out later that's because a lot of WF teaechings are similar to New Thought which is in the New Age. I am not saying the WF teachers are New AGers. That's besides the point and they are not. But their teachings have some similarities (especially to Unity, which is a New Thought church). In other ways, they are very different.

I agree we need to be careful about what we say about someone's teachings. I am careful. I find it interesting that when evidence of false teachings is posted, many always say we need to be careful. Well, I am. No one here is not being careful. I am being truthful.

Eph. 5.11

If you'd like to pursue this further with non-sensationalistic material that examine the WF teachings biblically, here are a few links.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/WRDFAITH.HTM

http://www.watchman.org/profile/wordpro.htm

http://www.afcministry.com/Faith_Movement.htm

I have a question for Marcia, since it seems like she's done her homework, but anyone else is welcome to answer, too.

Could you tell me the difference in a Biblically-correct response and a Word Faith response to the following situations (In other words, how should you pray, and what should you do? The Bible says......, The Word Faith people say.....):

(1) You've just been diagnosed with terminal cancer.

(2) You're barely making ends meet, living week to week, and you lose your job.

(3) Any other "real life" situations you can think of where there would be a drastic difference between what the Bible tells us to do and what the Word Faith teachers tell us.

Thanks.

Originally posted by Brian30755:
I have a question for Marcia, since it seems like she's done her homework, but anyone else is welcome to answer, too.

Could you tell me the difference in a Biblically-correct response and a Word Faith response to the following situations (In other words, how should you pray, and what should you do? The Bible says......, The Word Faith people say.....):

(1) You've just been diagnosed with terminal cancer.

(2) You're barely making ends meet, living week to week, and you lose your job.

(3) Any other "real life" situations you can think of where there would be a drastic difference between what the Bible tells us to do and what the Word Faith teachers tell us.

Thanks.

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WF:
Well, according to several WF teachers, you have become sick and lost your job because of your lack of faith or your negative confession. So it's all your fault. You should start practicing positive confession (saying things out loud) and say nothing negative. You don't pray for God's will. I actually don't hear a lot about prayer from WF teachers. They talk more about positive confession, saying blessings out loud (Osteen), and using faith as a force to create with your mouth. So you don't say you have terminal cancer, for example, you confess with your mouth (out loud) that you are well. I know a WF person who has a hip problem such that she has to use a walker. She does not ask for healing. She told me that she is already healed, it's just that her hip and legs don't know it yet.

Bible:
I think most here know what biblical prayer is. Surely I don't need to go into that. It's not the above examples.

Marcia, looks like you understand WOF teachings very well. I hate to think of the damage they do in people's lives, it disgusts me.

WF:
Well, according to several WF teachers, you have become sick and lost your job because of your lack of faith or your negative confession. So it's all your fault. You should start practicing positive confession (saying things out loud) and say nothing negative. You don't pray for God's will. I actually don't hear a lot about prayer from WF teachers. They talk more about positive confession, saying blessings out loud (Osteen), and using faith as a force to create with your mouth. So you don't say you have terminal cancer, for example, you confess with your mouth (out loud) that you are well. I know a WF person who has a hip problem such that she has to use a walker. She does not ask for healing. She told me that she is already healed, it's just that her hip and legs don't know it yet.

Bible:
I think most here know what biblical prayer is. Surely I don't need to go into that. It's not the above examples.

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"Dear Lord, you know I have terminal cancer. They say I'm going to die. I don't want to die from this, Lord, I want to be healed. Please heal me, if it be your will. In Jesus' name, Amen."

Would that be an example of a Biblically-correct prayer?

I was hoping that somebody could tell me, if they found themselves, say, diagnosed with terminal cancer, what they would personally pray and/or do as opposed to what the Word Faith teachers say you should pray and/or do.

That I would stay in the center of God's will and that He would flood me with a spirit of love, of peace, and of a sound mind---that whether I live or whether I die---I live and die to the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ!

Marcia, it sounds like you and IO are hitting the same websites and reading the same books.

I too have been reading/researching WF since I got married and my DH's family are all follwers of the whole WF movement.

At first, I thought it was no big deal, it;s still the same God. Then after reading what some of these people were saying, how it twisted the Bible, Deified man, demoting God, demoting Christ, blamed the person for anything bad that happened in life as unconfessed sin, lack of faith, or speaking the wrong thing and causing the issue.

After comparing what the WF preachers say about God to what the Bible says about God, TO ME, yes, it is not the same God. God of the Bible is not bound my words, does not need my permission to work in the human world. Nor are we, because we are made in God's image little gods.

This is not harmless. What these people say is blasphemy, straight from Satan. They say they are "annoited" to say the things they are, but I just can't bring myself to believe that God would give them the words that they have said.

After doing some research, I was even more in shock after finding out that at the Joyce Meyer conferece in St.Louis Mo. Sept 29-Oct 1 this year, one of her guest speakers will be none other then Creflo Dollar, who on his website has a "School of Prosperity" that states "Even though you are to “owe no man any thing, but to love [him]…” (Romans 13:8), having no increase renders you useless to the kingdom of God."

SO...being poor, you are USELESS to God. This is just the beginning of the unbiblical statements that I found just skimming his site.

I had thought that I would not post again on this thread, especially after no one answered Brian's question.

First, this thread, I believe has gone off topic.

The opening post asked what we thought of Frederick K. C. Price and it has gone to discussing and I would really like to use a stronger word to many other people who are TV preachers and possibly in the so called Word of Faith Movement.

Perhaps, it would be better if one would just discuss Bro. Price and start another thread to discuss the Word of Faith Movement as they see it.

I am very glad that this discussion was started because it has caused me to re-read some of Dr. Price's books to see if that is really what he was saying.

I think I must be reading his book's with a Baptist mindset because I still do not interpret what he is saying the same as Marcia, Dina, and others. Even if I am wrong and they are right, I have been blessed by Dr. Price's messages and books. I am speaking of Dr. Price only.

I truly believe that God sent Dr. Price into my life when I needed his positive way of thinking. My first husband of 34 years had died suddenly in my arms. At that time I had been a Christian for nearly 50 years and did I have questions!!

I was not angry at God, but I just didn't understand. Dr. Price's explanations are very simple and through listening and reading his books and checking everything that he said in my Bible, my faith strengthened. Until this time I thought I had to help God take care of me, but no I was limiting God. God can take care of me. He loves me. I must put all my faith and trust in Him. I really learned this.

At no time, did I think that my sin or my husband's sin had caused his death. At no time have I ever felt through Dr. Price's teachings that I am poor because I have sinned. I am RICH, RICH, RICH, even though I don't have very much money, even though I don't have perfect health. I am a child of the King.

I actually looked for the words in Dr. Price's books that say if I am sick or poor I have sinned. I can't find it. I can't find it in the Bible., but I can find Dr. Price's words in the Bible.

For example:

Romans 10: 8 & 9 KJV:

8. But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart that is, the word of faith, which we preach: 9 That if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shall be saved.

And just last night, our Southern Baptist Preacher said: " Jesus is waiting for you to ask"



Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. Matthew 7:7 KJV

If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. John 14:14 KJV


Now, Brian, I think that Dr. Price would suggest that you take the "if" out of your prayer. If it be God's Will because I venture to guess that he would say that shows lack of faith that God can heal you. This is just my opinion and I really do not know what the Word of Faith people would pray.

Further, when I retired early from my job because of my husband's death, I didn't want to work any more, a financial adviser would have told me, "no Way" you are not even old enough to draw social security and you plan to live on this amount. Well I did it with God's help and was debt free within the year.

Faith is important. Faith in God.

I appreciate this thread because I think I have been limiting God in my life and He is so awesome and powerful. I love and praise my God and am ever thankful to Jesus. It is important to put our faith in God and let Him take care of us.