What's in a name?

TexasSky,

Christians do need a church. And there's one on just about every corner. Atleast here in the Bible belt anyway.

Also, understand that I'm not saying every Baptist church needs to immediately drop Baptist from their name. Each church should understand what their visions is, and act accordingly. For us, if you even understand the difference between Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, etc, you are not the person we're looking for. If you come, we'll welcome you, but we're not trying to attract you.

My experience has been that the only people making assumptions about our church are Christians. As I said earlier, this is really a non-issue to the average unchurched person.

 

If a Christian is moving to a new town and looking for a church with Baptist in the name, there are plenty to choose from. However we are not going to put Baptist in our name for hypotheticals. If Baptist in the name is an issue for someone, they probably will not fit in our church anyway.

By the way, you can find an equal number of churches with "weird" beliefs that have Baptist clearly in the name.

 

I don't think "Baptist" is an issue.

I'm just asking - how do people with basic Baptist beliefs (which I am assuming you have since you're on the Baptist Board) know you are out there?

And Guitarpreacher - who will mentor, teach, guide and serve as wise instructors versed in God's word to your group of unbelievers if you aren't worried about recruiting Christians?

How do people who have no idea what theological views you associate yourself with get any idea on whether or not you are a true church or a cult before they actually visit you?

 

You shouldn't be trying to "attract" anyone. If someone is meant to be be there, God will provide. To think that we can intice, bribe, or attract people to church is foolishness.

My church is Primitive Baptist. We meet every Sunday at 10am. If people feel the need to come and praise God with us, that is great. If people don't feel the need to come and praise God with us, that is their prerogative.

Our goal as a church is solely to praise, worship, and honor God. It is not to "attract" the "unchurched" into our midst. If and when God decides that He is ready for those in the world to come into our midst, He will place the need within them to "come and see" what we are all about.

The reason we call ourselves Primitive Baptist is to differentiate ourselves from other relgions of the world. If people are serious about going to church, and not just paying lip service, they will take initiative and investigate what our church believes before passing judgment against us. The "Primitive Baptist" in our name gives interested parties a good idea about our fundamental beliefs and practices.

One neat thing about being Primitive Baptist is that the name stirs interest with people. Most folks have never heard of the name before and become interested and asking questions such as, "what is the difference between you and regular Baptists? or Southern Baptists? or Missionary Baptists?" The name gets the attention of outside people and it makes them think.

"Community church" only makes me think of liberalism, and not necessarily in a political sense.

 

Hey Tex,

Now we're talking about something entirely different. Discipleship is a very key issue with our church, and we are very purposeful in bringing people along to the point to where they are able to teach. You used the word "recruit", and that's a whole 'nuther cat. I just recently recruited a rock solid man to teach an adult Bible study. We are still discussing if he will actually join us or if we will have him "on loan" from his current church. (keep in mind we are new and still a mission) We do recruit strategically to fill those needed leadership roles. But we are careful about who we recruit, cuz not everyone who is Baptist can catch the vision we have. Don't mean we're right and they're wrong, we're just different, and different is okay.

As far as the people who visit us, because of our mission status and lack of funding, we do almost no advertising. We meet in a Jr High school, so we don't have any permenant signage for people to see. We put up a banner announcing our Sunday service early on Saturday morning and take it down late Sunday afternoon. Maybe once every three months or so we'll get a visitor off of the banner. The other visitors we get are people we have sought out. We don't believe in waiting for folks to just show up, we go where they are and work from there. Very few people have their first contact with our church at the Sunday morning worship service.

Those were good questions, and I'm enjoying having this conversation with you. Most church people don't use the word recruit, but that's exactly what we have done. We recruit our leadership because of their experience, their walk with Christ, and their ability to teach/lead. Because of that, I believe we have a more solid discipleship program than most of the churches around us. Also, for what it's worth, we haven't recruited anyone who was actively serving in a ministry position at their church. We've taken people who for one reason or another, were looking for an opportunity to be in ministry, but were not currently being used. And we have used loaners as well, folks who come and help us for a pre-detemined period of time, then return to their home church.

We look forward to the day when all of our teachers are folks we have trained up to be spiritually mature and able to teach. That's our goal.

 

I think I understand now, Guitar Preacher.

Thank you, and God bless your church. It sounds like you are very God centered, and as long as that is true, it won't matter what you call yourself.

 

I would ditto much of what GP said about recruiting leaders. You will also attract mature believers who grasp the bigger picture and want to be a part of a church with an outward focus. God supplies leaders as you seek to train and raise up leaders internally.

Understand that most churches that focus on reaching unbelievers also attract a certain amount of believers who do not have their own agenda. It takes a lot of maturity to be a part of a church that is focused on reaching. So we are thankful when believers come with that same vision.

Also we utilize our website to articulate who we are at some level. From our site, you can discover our basic beliefs and core values, which would distinguish us from cults, etc. Most people will check out our website long before they check out our church.

 

We use our website as well, and lots of people visit there to find out more about us. You won't find the word Baptist there, but you will find a streamlined, much less wordy, version of the Baptist Faith and Message, including a paragraph on "Once saved always saved" Now, how
Baptist is that!

www.crosspointecabot.org if you want to check it out.

 

Quote: "
My church is Primitive Baptist. We meet every Sunday at 10am. If people feel the need to come and praise God with us, that is great. If people don't feel the need to come and praise God with us, that is their prerogative.

Our goal as a church is solely to praise, worship, and honor God. It is not to "attract" the "unchurched" into our midst. If and when God decides that He is ready for those in the world to come into our midst, He will place the need within them to "come and see" what we are all about.

To me that just screams "You can go to hell, and we really don't care." That may be the saddest thing I've ever heard a Christian say.

 

I don't know how you figure that, since it is not our works that get us into heaven anyway.

Beside that, people are simply unable and unwilling to go to church until they have been born again. Since this occurs independently of going to church and hearing the gospel, they should not be going to church until and unless they are regenerated.

What is sad to me is seeing people scare others into coming to church by telling them they will go to hell unless they repent and accept Christ. That is simply false, although it is a great method if all a church wants is people to fill a pew.

Frankly, it doesn't matter if I "care" or not whether a person goes to hell. My feelings toward the matter have no bearing whatsoever on the situation, and neither do yours or anyone elses.

 

Guess we can remove Romans 10: 14-16 from the Bible.

Bro Tony

 

Bro. Tony,

here is an article about Romans Chapter 10 that you might find rebutts what you probably believe concerning verses 14-16, as well as the other verses in the chapter. It is by Elder Mark Thomas.

All of the comments, etc below belong to Elder Thomas.

Enjoy,

Bro. James


Comments on Romans 10


1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Notice that immediately Paul makes a distinction between the Brethren and those whom he wishes to discuss. Those who are the subject of discussion are named Israel and they have a zeal of God, but it is not a proper one. It is a zeal which manifests willful ignorance of the imputed righteousness of Christ, Who is the end of the law to the Brethren who are knowledgeable of Him and believe in Him. But those named Israel, who have a zeal of God, are zealously seeking to establish their own righteousness by following Mosaic law.

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above

7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

The righteousness of the law speaks on this manner, that the man which does the things prescribed by the law shall live by the things of the law. Or if spoken in the negative, the righteousness of the law speaks on this wise, that the man which keeps not the law shall die by the law. By the righteousness which is by the law the heart says I shall keep the law and my righteousness shall cause my ascendance to heaven. Or it says in the heart I by my righteous keeping of the law shall transcend death.

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

But the righteousness of faith says not in the heart that it shall transcend death or ascend to heaven by the righteousness of the law. The saying of the righteousness of faith is nigh to us, it is even in our mouths and in our hearts. The saying of the righteousness of faith is the same saying as the preached word. And that saying is a confession. What is a confession? It is an owning up to the truth. It is to say truly that which has already occurred. For who has ever heard of someone truthfully confessing to that which has not yet occurred? A confession is always about that which is already an accomplished fact. When the word confess is broken down to its elements, the prefix con carries the meaning `with'. The root of the word, `fess' carries the meaning of truth. The idea conveyed by the word is `to say the truth in agreement with or along with that which is already a true fact'. The Apostle is telling us that the word to be spoken by the righteousness of faith is near us. It is preached to us. In fact it is already in the heart and in the mouth. It is not to speak as the righteousness which is by the law of its own doing. The word spoken by the righteousness of faith is to speak along with that which is spoken by the gospel. The word spoken by the righteousness of faith is to speak along with what is known in the heart and is already in the mouth ready to be spoken. That word is Christ. We are to confess that He is my righteousness, for I have none of my own. We are to confess that our works could not attain righteousness but that His work did. We are to confess that faith in my own ability to ascend to heaven or transcend death is in vain. My faith is in Him Whom God raised from the dead and has elevated to heaven. He has done for me what I could not do for myself. My heart believes it, and confessing it with my mouth, saves me. What does confession save me from? From the error of those named Israel in this discussion. What was their error? Willful ignorance of the truth. Why were they ignorant? Because they refused to confess the truth. They would not submit to the truth of God's righteousness. What does confession save me to? To the joys and peace of mind that comes from telling and believing the truth. Such sweet relief it is to put my faith in Him Who is able to save to the uttermost and drop my vain faith in my own abilities to procure righteousness by my works. What peace of mind is mine when I can say along with the glad tidings of the gospel: All of Christ, all of grace. And behold beloved, when we say these things it is confession. We do not say it to get it to be so. We say it because it is already so. We say it with what is already in the heart and in the mouth. We say it along with the preached word.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

When the heart believes, submits, owns up to, confesses to the truth it carries, our sense of shame vanishes being washed away with the joy and peace that floods the soul with relief. And this is true for all whom the Lord has graciously dealt with and written His truth upon their hearts whether Jew or Greek. And who else can call upon Him but those whom He has quickened and given living spiritual hearts? And how else could it be confession when they call upon him if the righteousness of faith were not already imparted to them by new birth? And whosoever calls upon him with the saying of the righteousness of faith shall be saved from the error of self- righteousness, and the shame of perpetual failure to measure up to the righteousness which is by the law, and the shame felt from not confessing to the truth.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Obviously if one does not believe in Christ they will not call upon Him in belief. Who is being discussed here? All along the Apostle has been contrasting two groups. Those who speak by the righteousness which is by faith and those who speak according to the righteousness which is by the keeping of the law. The Apostle has demonstrated the response of those who speak from the righteousness which is by faith and call upon the name of the Lord and are saved from the errors of self-righteousness, self-deception, and a host of other error as well as receiving numerous gospel benefits. Now he proceeds to show us the reactions of the other group that speak from the righteousness which is by the keeping of the law. The issue here is not who has heard or not heard the gospel. For the context will establish that all of those under discussion by Apostle have heard. The issue is who has obeyed and believed the report they have heard. Obviously, all under consideration have heard the preached gospel and cannot make the claim that they did not get the report. Verse 18 will clearly state that all have heard. The Master’s repeatedly stated the task of going first to the lost sheep of the house of Israel should be recalled. He pointedly directed his disciples to minister in that fashion. Paul clearly states that this point was reached and that the gospel had reached them all. See vs. 18 below. The results are indicated in verse 16 "But they have not all obeyed the gospel". A day of timely judgment was coming to Israel and when it arrived, none will have the excuse that they did not know. For verily all of Israel heard the good news of the gospel and those who did not believe the report would be left without excuse and fall under the judgment. The particulars of this judgment will be brought to light in the 11th chapter. Be sure to remember here the statements of Paul at the beginning of this 10th chapter: "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." Paul is interested in saving them from being self-righteous "works mongers". He is interested in seeing them drop their works righteousness and put their faith in the righteousness of Christ. The salvation under consideration is the gospel aspect of salvation not their eternal salvation to heaven. Paul is making this case in vss. 14 and 15a and presents the list of "excuses" for disobedience that might be made by the Jews. They might say it is not fair to bring judgment against us for we did not know and no one told us. We had no report (gospel) we were sent none to tell us of this, and therefore we did not hear so that we might obey. Verses 15b and following destroy their arguments and prove that they did know, they did hear, and have no excuse for their disobedience. They chose to put their faith in the works of the law instead of the works of the Lord Jesus Christ. They chose not to confess from their hearts to the preached word and thus we find in chapter 11 that they are cut off from the joys and privileges of gospel kingdom.

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world

The word "cometh" in verse 17 is a supplied word to aid in our understanding and was not in the original language. But I have no problem with the word and think when it is properly understood that it does help in the understanding of this passage. The key question that I would like to ask is where is it that faith "cometh" from? It is said to come WHEN the gospel is preached and heard. But WHERE is the faith coming FROM? Is it coming from the gospel? Does the gospel convey faith to the hearer? No. Faith is a fruit of the spirit and spiritual life is not conveyed by the gospel. The gospel is a spiritual message. If one truly hears the gospel then that one must have spiritual ears to hear it with. Therefore none can truly hear the gospel unless they have been already born of the spirit. The dead do not hear. If they have been born of the spirit, then faith already resides in the heart of the one that hears. It is from within the child of God from which faith must come. When the gospel is preached, the message is heard with spiritual ears and the heart recognizes that message as what it believes and what it knows. In faith, the child of God compares what is already within him and then confesses to the true gospel that is saying the same thing. Faith is not created in this process. Faith is brought to confession by this process. You cannot confess to that which is not already a truth. This confession is also a profession. The child of God that hears the gospel confesses that it is the same truth that he carries within his heart and then professes that truth openly by faith. In verse 18 the Apostle continues his arguments to show that those who do not confess to the truth that Christ is the end of the law of righteousness to those that believe are completely without excuse. They have heard the true report but have remained willfully ignorant of the truth and refused to confess it preferring to stay under the bondage of the law and to establish their own righteousness by their works. Beloved friends, how many in this world today do just the same. They are taught a system of works righteousness and prefer it to the truth that abides in their heart that Christ alone could establish and be the righteousness of His people. Those who refuse to look upon their own sinfulness and inabilities never acknowledge their true need of the Saviour but instead remain willfully ignorant of the righteousness which is by faith and continue to try and establish their own righteousness by works. The sad truth is that much that is published today under the name of the gospel is no more than the promulgating of "do this and live". And, like the Jews who chose self-righteousness of old, these today are cut off from the true joys of the gospel kingdom also. I would not try to suggest that they get ‘nothing’ from their church, their beliefs and their labors. But, I do not believe that they enjoy what the child of God does who confesses and professes that Christ alone is His righteousness and enters into the promised rest of the true Church of the Lord Jesus Christ It would appear to me that much of their joy is in their programs, entertainments, and various additions that are nowhere taught in Scripture.

19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Verse 19 states a rhetorical question to which the answer is of course "yes". They all knew. The Apostle then proceeds to describe the bringing in of the Gentiles to the gospel kingdom. He shows that one design in this was to provoke Israel to jealousy and to emulation of the Gentiles that they also might in the end be brought back into the receipt of the gospel kingdom. Paul throughout these final verses of chapter 10 makes reference back to the prophecies from the Old Testament that foretold the very things that were then occurring. Vs 20 Then, lest some might try to say that these who were trusting in establishing their own righteousness were not elect, we ask the question "Why would God be portrayed as one in-gathering them in verse 21 if they were non-elect and could not possibly respond?" The truth is that even though we are given the abilities in the new birth to be obedient, to confess in faith to the truth, and profess the finished work of Christ, many still do not. Many today still fall under the category of being a disobedient and gainsaying people. Yes, and sometimes even we are caught in this way too are we not? And, at such times we have great need to look again at our inabilities and renew the confession of our faith and make a true profession of the righteousness of Christ as our only hope of glory.

 

At least this mindset gets one out of the Great Commission

There is absolutely no justification for what you propose here. But then again this is Calvinism in its truest sense.

 

Thanks Bro James,

Your right I found it interesting. Not surprizing but interesting. Hyper-calvinism to the extreme and the warping of the clear intent of the Scripture to make it say what a group wants it to say rather than what it actually says. It is really not as complicated as these gentlemen propose---it is simple. We must share the message of the Gospel. For it is the power of God that brings salvation (Rom 1:16).

And for your view to be right you also must just throw out Jesus' commission to His Apostles. And also it appears that Peter, John and Paul along with many others just wasted their entire lives sharing the Gospel throughout the world. What a waste of time and effort if men dont need to hear the Gospel in order to be saved.

Again, I can deal with the understanding of the Calvinist, although I dont always agree (btw- I dont always agree with the arminians either) but I cant even stomach this hyper-calvinism that has to completely change the Scripture and church history to be legitamate.

Bro Tony

 

I don't see anything wrong with not having "Baptist" in your church's name but why align, then, with a Baptist convention? Why not become independent?

If you don't want to say that you're a Baptist church why be one?

 

There were three pages of discussion on this before the thread was hijacked by the hyper-calvanistic mumbo jumbo. Did you skip that part?

 

Okay, I've been thinking about this today. We launched our church as CrossPointe Church, but maybe we were wrong. Maybe we should be CrossPointe Baptist Church. But, there are all kinds of Baptist, and each is different. There are Southern Baptist, Missionary Baptist, Independant Baptist, General Baptist, Primitive Baptist, Free Will Baptist, and lots more. So, just so no one is confused, we will change our name to CrossPointe Southern Baptist Church. But all SBC churches are not the same. We have that conservative/liberal thing going on. So I guess we better make it CrossPointe Conservative Southern Baptist Church. However, that may not be fair to other conservatives, because I was once told by another SBC pastor that since I did not believe that the KJV was a perfect translation, that makes me a liberal. Even though I disagree, I don't want any confusion, so we better be CrossPointe Conservative Non-KJVO Southern Baptist Church. I just noticed that someone started a thread on the Lord's Supper, and who should participate. That's an important issue, and one that not everyone agrees on. Some are closed communion, some are open communion, and some like us are close communion. I guess we better include that. So we are now CrossPointe Conservative Non-KJVO Close Communion Southern Baptist Church. Oh yeah, I never realized how many baptist were calvanist, and we certainly wouldn't want them to be uncomfortable listening to a sermon about the choices we have to make, so with that in mind, we will be CrossPointe Conservative Non-KJVO Close Communion Armenian Southern Baptist Church. Man, this is getting long and I haven't even started good.

So best I can tell, we'll be changing our name to CrossPointe Conservative Non-KJVO Close Communion Armenian PDC Structured Contemporary Staff Led Topical Preaching Cafe Styled Southern Baptist Church. Wow, we better start a capital fund raising campaign, cuz that's going to one big honking church sign

 

GP and others,

This is rank hypocrisy. You claim to be affiliated with the SBC, which leads me to assume that you subscribe to basic Baptist doctrines, yet you say if someone is looking for a Baptist church, you probably would not want them. What ever happened to the fellowship among Christian brothers? Or is that fellowship restricted to non-Baptists. Later on you say you rectuit mature Christians. From where do you recruit them. You have just said you don't want people who look for a Baptist Church. Or is it that you just look for those who meet your "high standards".

I strongly recommend, since you do not call yourselves Baptist, that you drop your affiliation with the SBC. Perhaps you might feel more comfortable with another fellowship, say Methodist, or better yet non-affiliated. Or is it just you aren't really Baptist but stay affiliated with the SBC in order to obtain whatever aid you can grub from their treasury.

I am a Baptist and I proclaim it to any and all. I believe the Baptist beliefs are closer to the teachings of scriptures than any other church group. I am glad to have been warned by you folks who say that Baptists are not your "target" or probably would not be welcome in your "church". I pray that God in His infinite mercy will never allow me to be located near where your organization is.

If you do not subscribe to basic Baptist doctrine, then you are indeed hypocritical by saying you are Baptist. If you do subscribe to basic Baptist doctrine, you are being hypocritical by denying you are Baptist. May God have mercy on us if you are the "new breed" of Baptists.

 

Seeker,

A couple of points you either misunderstood or refused to see.

1. Hypocrisy has nothing to do with whether I put Baptist on my sign or not. As gp points out above, every church makes decisions on how they will define themselves through a name. We simply choose to identify ourselves as a church first. We are not ashamed of being Baptist. It is simply not the foot we put forward first.

When you purchase Minute Maid OJ, you are buying a product made by Coca-Cola (which is usually on the back of the container). Is Coke being hypocritical by advertising on the front of the carton "Minute Maid OJ"? No. That is what is in the container. They simply know people who are looking for OJ are going to look for Minute Maid and not Coke. It is a matter of how you want unbelievers (in our case) to view you. We believe when unbelievers are seeking spiritually they are not drawn to a name (Baptist) but they may be turned away by one.

Let me ask you: would you take Baptist out of your church name if it allowed you to reach more people with the gospel? If your answer is no, you definitely have a priority problem.

Also with the 2 distinct Baptist groups in VA, don't you think you better identify with one of the particular groups? If you do not, people may not know what type of Baptist you are.

2. I don't care if a person is Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, etc., they are simply not our primary target. We are not here to attract churched people, we are here to reach unbelievers. It has nothing to do with whether a person is a Baptist. It has to do with our target -- unbelievers.

That does not mean we do not welcome or receive churched people who want to be a part of the type of church we are. We welcome them. We simply do not seek to go after them.

3. I do not remain affiliated with the SBC b/c of what I can "grub from their treasury." I choose to be SBC for other reasons. Trust me. It has nothing to do with what I can get. As a matter of fact, I have made decisions to not take from the coffers of the SBC.

4. I too am a Baptist. Just b/c we do not put a 7 letter word on our sign does not make me any less Baptist than you. We are not "denying" being a Baptist. That is a total false accusation and misrepresentation.

5. God have mercy on us if the "old breed" of Baptists have your same mindset.

I hope some of this clarifies your obvious misunderstandings.