Go And Sin No More

That spunds an awfully lot like works salvation to me. You recieve the kingdom(eternity in heaven) by being 'faithful'. Kind of takes Christ out of the picture.

 

I got it from your phrase "you must be a faithful disciple to recieve the reward of the kingdom at the judgment seat." </font>[/QUOTE]Can you not discern the difference between a reward and a gift?
Romans 4:4-7
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Your works do not enter into the equation where eternal salvation is concerned. So if there are requirements for salvation beyond believing, it must be talking about a different salvation.

 

Revelation 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

If you think (eternity in heaven) everytime you see Jesus talking about the kingdom, you will be working for your salvation:

Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 

This is where many people get confused about decipleship, which I believe is required for salvation. I believe that I am saved by grace through faith alone, not works. However, salvation is a life changing experience. We quite literally are born again. Someone who is born again does not want to continue in their old sinful ways.

Will they slip up and sin occasionally? Of course. Can you tell them from unsaved people by simply watching the way they live? Yes. If they don't live any differently than the unsaved they did not have a real salvation expereience.

Here comes the tricky part. Can they have a real salvation experience and lose their salvation (fall from grace)? Yes.

Jhn 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Jhn 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
Jhn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Jhn 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Jhn 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.


As Christ himself says here, we must abide in Him and keep His commandments. If we don't we will be like the branches that do not bear fruit and are therefore cast into the fire (Hell). If we don't continue to keep His commandments, we will not abide in His love. Do you honestly believe that someone whom Christ does not love will achieve eternal salvation? That the only problem will be that he loses some of his "rewards?" In no way can this scripture be interpreted in that way. But that isn't what they teach and preach in your church? They are WRONG, terribly wrong and most won't find out until they hear these words:

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

I need to ask you a question, StraightAndNarrow. Was Peter saved when he made his confession?

Matthew 16:16-18
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I believe he was. Even so, Christ said that he needed to be converted.

Luke 22:31-34
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.
34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

So what you would term a 'salvation experience,' I think would more accurately be called conversion. In the case of Peter, conversion did not occur until some time after he believed. Some may be converted at the moment of salvation, some may never be converted. We can't look at a persons works to see if they are saved. Only God looks upon hearts.

Matthew 18:3
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

I do. But the issue is your error in the statement "a person who sins does not love Jesus".

 

John
14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

You must feel I have misunderstood something. Please explain to me how one can sin and still be keeping His words.

 

You are misinterpreting the word "converted." If you look it up, it means to "turn back." I don't think it means the salvation experience in this passage.

I don't know if any of the disciples were "saved" the way we mean it today. This was an unusual time because Jesus had not yet atoned for sins and had not resurrected or ascended. These men did not have the indwelling of the HS.

I think they were in the same boat as the OT people - those people could believe in God but then fall away, even to the point of worshipping other gods.

And so Peter believed who Christ was but could fall away for a time, then come back (converted).

To take the case of the disciples while Jesus was on earth before the giving of the HS and try to compare that to salvation after the HS was given in Acts is, imo, not a good way to handle the text.

 

CONVERTED, pp. Turned or changed from one substance or state to another; turned form one religion or sect to another; changed from a state of sin to a state of holiness; applied to a particular use; appropriated.

 

James, it does not mean saved here like we are saved. Peter turned back to Christ but that does not mean he was "saved" the way we mean it today.

When was he saved? We honestly don't know. All we know is that he and the other disciples received the indwelling of the HS at Pentecost and we know from that point on, they were definitely saved.

 

I don't know what you mean when you say Peter turned back to Christ. But that is a very interesting idea, that nobody got saved before pentecost.

Luke 7:47-50
47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 18:42
42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

Were these people saved?

 

Yes, they were saved. I didn't say no one was saved before Pentecost!

I said that the concept of being saved after Pentecost includes the indwelling of the HS. This was not taught by Jesus in the gospels. Nor was it taught in the OT. Saul had the HS then the HS was taken away from him. I do not think Saul was saved.

Peter did not have the indwelling of the HS until after Pentecost. Whether he was saved when Jesus was on earth or not, I don't know.

You are imposing the concept of being saved with the indwelling of the HS and regeneration by the HS on people who were not yet indwelt by the HS.
So for Peter to "turn back" just means he repented of what he did or said and turned back, like the OT people when they turned back to God after worshiping other gods.

 

I really don't know what your saying Marcia. Conversion is not the same thing as repentance. Conversion is not the same thing as salvation. What is it that you think I am saying about Peter? And what are you saying about the Holy Spirit? Did you experience something like Pentecost when you got saved? I didn't. I did have an interesting conversion several years later, praise God!

Personally I do think Saul was saved, but Saul is an excellent picture of a disobedient child of God. Unless salvation is something you have one minute and then you don't have the next. Until his death, David would not touch Saul because he was the Lord's annointed.

 

I am saying that the word "converted" that you referred to does not mean "saved" in that passage.

No, I did not experience anything like Pentecost when I was saved; however, I knew the moment I was born again because I felt like a different person inside as soon as I trusted in Christ and I knew I was a Christian at that point. That was the regeneration of the HS though I did not know that term then. The HS had drawn me toward Christ before I was saved (though I did not know it at the time and even disputed it when someone told me that), but the HS was not indwelling me until I trusted Christ.

As for Saul, the Lord's condemnation of him seems pretty clear and leaves little doubt, imo, that he was not saved though I admit we cannot know for sure.
This is God rebuking Saul through Samuel:

Saul being rebuked by Samuel after God (not the medium) brings Samuel up. Here, God is called the adversary or enemy of Saul. Pretty strong stuff.

Finally, a condemnation in 1 Chron. 10.13-14

 

I agree, converted does not mean saved. It never means saved in eternity, which is by grace through faith alone. Like I said before, conversion doesn't necessarilly happen the same for all believers. If you were converted upon recieving the Gospel, praise God! I think many would give the same testimony. Some may be converted after Baptism, which is of course a command for believers, not for salvation. Some of us it may come much later, some maybe never. The mistake would be to assume that how God deals with me is how God deals with everyone. Imagine two formerly blind men arguing with each other:

(fbm1) When Jesus restores your sight, it happens all at once.

(fbm2) No, no, it happens in stages. First He puts the spit on your eyes and puts His hands on you, and you can kinda see. Then He puts His hands on your eyes again and NOW you have your sight restored.

(fbm1) What? He doesn't put spit on your eyes. He spits on the ground and puts the clay on your eyes. Then you go wash it off and you can see.

(fbm2) What are you talking about? Are you sure you can see at all?

(fbm1) If He didn't make clay and put it on your eyes, you're still blind.

God deals with His children how He will, and He knows what is best for them. But a stuborn, rebellious child that just will not humble himself and submit to chastisement will obviously not ever be converted. Rather he will suffer future chastisement at the judgment seat of Christ, where every knee WILL bow.

Matthew 18:3
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Conversion is not salvation, but it is required of a saved child of God who would reign with Jesus in the kingdom.

 

Just imagine what our Formerly Blind Men would say if this guy showed up

Luke 18:41-43
41 Saying, What wilt thou that I shall do unto thee? And he said, Lord, that I may receive my sight.
42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
43 And immediately he received his sight, and followed him, glorifying God: and all the people, when they saw it, gave praise unto God.

 

I don't understand what you mean by conversion. Conversion into what? Conversion doesn't mean go backward as someone suggested. It means changed as in converting a base metal into gold. The end result is something noticeably different than the original. To me conversion and (initial) salvation are the same thing. I say initial because it doesn't matter who starts the race. What matters is who finishes.

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2Ti 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith:
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

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Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

 

It isn't easy to give an exact definition of converted. The idea that a Christian ought to manifest outward signs of an inner change, I agree with this. But I disagree that all will.

2 Corinthians 5:17
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

The new man is automatic, there is no doing on the part of the believer. But then the believer is told to put on the new man.

Ephesians 4:22-24
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

So in one sense, it is when we put on the new man, and put off the old. When we begin walking in the spirit and not the flesh.

Matthew 13:15
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


Hebrews 5:11-14
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Being willing to hear the Lord, which will enable us to grow in the word. Some believers are still unable to hear what the Spirit sayeth to the churches.

Luke 22:32
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

When we are converted, then God can use us to minister to others and do His work. But God cannot (will not?) use just anyone.

2 Timothy 2:20-21
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

I think that conversion must be a fundamental change of heart in a believer, when he crosses some threshold into the new life of faith. The putting on of the new man, the taking up of the cross, seeking first the kingdom of God and His righteousness. I said before, it's what ought to happen to a believer. But a lot of things ought that never do.

 

I certainly agree with you that accepting Christ as our Savior should accompanied by a fundamental change in our lives. I disagree that whoever claims to believe on Him and does not undergo this dramatic change is saved at all. After all, Jesus said:

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Jesus doesn't say "You should be born again" or "It would be nice if you were born again." He said "Ye MUST be born again."

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

 

Absolutely you must be born again. But being born again (created a new creature?) doesn't imply walking in it (putting on the new man?) I believe that we are born again by believing on Jesus, not by any of our works of righteousness. So to say that a man must be born again to see the kingdom of God merely says that he must believe.

But what is Jesus talking about when He speaks of the kingdom of God? I think the standard traditional interpretation that the kingdom of God/kingdom of Heaven is talking about heaven is wrong. Jesus is still going to set up a literal kingdom on this earth for 1000 years, before the last day and what we would consider to be endless eternity with God. Why would He not be teaching about this kingdom?

John 6:40
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Is this promise of being raised up on the last day the same thing as entering the kingdom of heaven?