Left behind

Ed Edwards speaking of the pretribulation rapture event:

//This event is spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 where
it is called in the KJV 'falling away', when we saved through the
power of Jesus fall away from this old world like the fig that is
overripe. We will fall AS into the very hands of our Lord and Savior,
Messiah Jesus. Or you can turn the camera of your mind's eye around
180-degrees and consider it as in 1 Thess 4:17 our rising (caught up)
AS into the very hands of our Lord and Savior, Messiah Jesus.//

Benjamin: //We have been told not to be deceived, a fall means down
and a flight means up in my camera; so now your telling
us to turn it 180-degrees. Falling away-defection from truth, now
how would that happen?//

Ah ha, didn't understand a bit

metaphor - an implied simile
simile - an unimplied metaphor

'Metaphor' and 'Simile' are both retorical/literary devices.
In the simile the comparason is specified by AS or LIKE.
To make sure a maximum number of people understood I was using
a metaphor I specified making it a simile. (I have gone back
and bolded the 'as' in my statement). Most Bibles do NOT bold
the metaphors, but the rapture (caught up) and the departure (falling away)
are both metaphrs of the wonderful miracles that will occur at
the pretribulation rapture.

Why do some seem to find it strange that prophecy uses
retorical/lilterary devices?
BTW, the seven English Translations before the King James version
all used a variation of 'DEPARTURE' instead of the 'FALLING AWAY'
used in the KJV at 2 Thessalonians 2:3. So in those great old Bibles
the direction is unspecified (up or down).

 

Bapmom: //"easy rapturism?" Thats a new one on me!//

Nothing is new. I've been debating with non-pretribs on the bulletin
boards (bbs) alone for 21 years now. I've even had some time to
do some profiling of non-pretribs. Here is a profile of
the majority of non-pretribs:

A man 30-50 years old who spent their first 10 years after salvation
as a pretrib. The non-pretrib is a stuanch believer that you can
(usually of your own free will) fall from grace. If this person is
seminary/bible school trained, it is a non-accredited school.

So it doesn't surprise me to come up with 'easy rapturism' being
the profiled non-pretrib is also non-OSAS (OSAS = once saved,
always saved) and believes in 'easy believeism'.

(Profiling caveat: this just describes the majority of the described
group: the factors that a majority have. Many will only have
one, two, or three of the majority criteria.
For example, in profiling a 45-year-old woman who is a-mil post-trib
and OSAS believer
who converted to post-trib from pretrib 8 years after salvation when
she went to a non-accredited bible school - that person would
'fit' the profile. She meets two of the majority criteria:
first she is 30-50 years old, and she went to a non-accredited school.
The criteria not met is: (1)she is not male, (2)she didn't spend 10 years
in pretrib, and (3) she is not anti-OSAS.

Quoted from uptopic so the Translation data is missing:

(Col 2:8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and
vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments
of the world, and not after Christ.


Benjamin: //First I will put my trusts in Christ and the Spirit that
is in me which will never leave me nor forsake me. I do not
fear that I may be here in the trib and hope to be prepared,
armor on, and not fall into the philosophy of “easy rapturism”//

All Christians trust ('trust' is both the singular and plural form of a noun)
in Christ (that is what 'Christian' means). What do you trust Christ
to do? If i go into the Great Tribulation period, i trust that
CHrist will keep me eternall saved no matter how many blessings
i might miss out on or how many crowns i might loose if I fail.

Matthew 24:13 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ )

But the one who endures to the end, this one will be delivered

We know for sure this is the Written Word of God.
It is agreed to by pretribs, post-tribs, OSAS folk, and
'you can give away your salvation' folk. What is not agreed upon
is what is NOT said (nor can it be implied because this above
proposition is true:

1) The one who endures NOT to the end, this one will NOT be delivered.
or
2) The one who endures NOT to the end, this one will be delivered

OSAS says #2 is correct,
the non-OSAS says #1 is correct.

Remember my profile: most non-pretribs are non-OSAS.
What a shame. How can this be considered 'gospel' or 'good news'?
I guess my life experience is different. I've been both pretrib
and OSAS for 54½-years now. All my studies convince me of the
exact teachings that were handed off to me and which i ran with.

When I was in the Military (age 19-23) and through my age 30s,
I informally studied

 

That’s right about salvation and it’s not by works in any way including your belief in a pretrib rapture, but by faith. Now, if God finds me worthy to be here during the tribulation I would hope to have enough faith as to not be deceived into believing the philosophies of man just to fill my own desire to escape it and then be caught off guard into believing the lies of the Anti-Christ. That would be blasphemy of the HS and we know what Jesus said about that. Also profiling someone’s beliefs because they are led differently is spoke of in Matthew 7:1-5. I will also pray that you are saved so if you do face the trib you will be prepared instead of seduced which many will be, and as a result will suffer in hell.

Well, we got that in common then because I speak my mind also, that’s how you learn. You might want to rethink not being afraid of offending others though because some people are easy to offend and we should speak the truth in love. Glad you got a backbone so I won’t have to walk on eggshells around you cause my scale is heavily weighted on the bold side and it is an ongoing learning process to refrain myself enough because of who I am and some are very meek in the Body; I’ve long known it takes a strong man to be a gentle"man", Mam!

 

G646
ἀποστασία
apostasia
ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.

Strong delusional preflight hopes here? For someone that’s been engulfed in pretrib debate for 21 years to think falling away means a rapture flight-WOW! Fix that camera, your holding it upside down or something! Whether you think it is “departure” or “falling away” as it is referring to the “truth” and a “departure from it, not the any moment flyaway pretrib escapist rapture theory. Unless you’re looking at the after result of not heeding the warning, then it could mean trouble for those doing the defecting in which falling is what it says and I’ll believe the Bible.

Apostasy-falling away from the truth, being told to turn my camera upside down-180 degrees. I said how could that happen? (meaning defection from the truth, falling away from the truth, being deceived into believing a lie “like” the warning in 2Th 2:3) It ain’t talking about flying Ed! Sheesh!

I then quoted DPT talking about this new doctrine that surfaced that no one before ever believed in, but instead believed the truth in the Bible. Preach it, DPT. Get it?

BTW, if this new dispensational teaching is the falling away spoken of then things might be getting close, huh?

Have a nice flight Ed if you must; I am secure in my belief and obviously we will have to disagree so then I have better things to meditate on at this time. You can have the last word. God bless you.

 

DP

[ November 05, 2005, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: Benjamin ]

 

Benjamin: //Sorry, but my Bible says, “Let no man deceive you
by any means: for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;”//

Interesting, but uninformative.
That was the same verse i was using.
I explained what it it said.
Your repeating the verse indicates to me you did not
agree with my understanding of the verse.
But you have failed to delineate the way you understand
this verse to be. So by your inaction you
yield the point to me (which not the way I like it, I'm
just reporting the way it is counted by most people).

You see Bro. DeafPosttrib, with whom I've discussed eschatology
for three years on this BB (Baptist Board) venue alone, believes
that 'man of sin be revealed' means when the Antichrist goes into
the temple and declares himself to God. (which I think happens
at mid-trib) Or maybe some other
a-mill pretrib believes that, it is hard to keep up with these matters
without a scoresheet
Anyway, I believe that the Tribulation Period, when the 'man of sin'
is actiave on the earth is the 70th Week of Daniel 9. So i believe
that the revelation of the 'man of sin' will be when he completes a 7-year
peace treaty for Yisrael.


Probably about 8 years ago I read from non-pretribs that
"It is strange that the Disciple John wrote all of Revelation
without ever mentioning the 'Rapture' or even aluding to it."

Well, seems like a good argument, John was supposted to have written
the definative Prophesy for the future of the New Testament saints.
(Minority opinion: some full preterists say that the book of
Revelation was a history book; other preterists say that the
96AD book called 'Revelation' was written prior to the destruction
of the temple in 70AD by then General Titus (later Emperor Titus)
of the Roman Empire.) Well, Holy Spirit, if you want me to keep
believing pretrib, show me. Revelation does teach the pretribulation
rapture of the Church Age saints. It is by TYPE. In Revelation 4:1
John is called to heaven in the same manner in which those saints
who are in the pretribulation rapture are called.

Probably 4 years ago I rad from non-pretribs that: "It is strange, if
the pretribulation rapture is so 'right' how come Jesus didn't mention
it?

Sounds like a good argument, Jesus is God, isn't He? Jesus knew
if God was going to He have a 'pretribulation rapture'. So why didn't
He mention it. My answer - Jesus mentiones the Pretribulation rapture.
Now recall the pretribulation rapture is yet to happen some 1,965 years
(nearly 2,000 years) later, so the Lord couldn't get His followers
(whom tradition says all were martyered saved for John who died of
old age iTwelve years ago my pastor came to this community (i'd been
a member of the 20 years when he came). He studies the scripture a lot
and probably can say half the New Testament from Memory. Anyway, he
was telling me about various retorical devices, different literary
methods. One such literary method is the polysyndeton: the repeated
'and' (repeated 'kai' in Greek). When i was a kid in grammer school
my grammer teacher said "And you ain't never supposed to start
no sendence with the word 'and' " (tee hee, just kiddin' she talked
good grammer as well as writing it).
But then you read the first chapter of Genesis and you see verse
after verse, sentence after sentence starting with 'and'. Likewise
in the 24th chapter of Matthew. These are examples of the polysyndeton
'and'. (BTW, Greek 'kai' can be translated 'but' when showing contrast
instead of equality, 'kai' can be translated 'then' when showing
things that happen over time, other translations are also used.)

The Holy Spirit turned me to Matthew 24:3. Here IMO (in my opinion)
the disciples asked Jesus three questions. I believe that the rest
of Chapter 24 of Matthew is the answer of these three questions
IN THE ORDER ASKED (not the answer in which they will happen).
Chapter 25 of Matthew contains supporting parables and the end
of Matthew 25 is the description of the Judgement of the sheep
and goat nations that will determine which non-Israeli
nations shall go into the pysical/earthly Millinnial Kingdom of Christ.

So, Yes - Jesus does give us the good news about the pretribulation
rapture of the Church Age (Age of the Gentiles) saints at the end
of this current age - right in the Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD).
The 'and's (Greek 'kai's) are used to delineate the outline of the
24th chapter of Matthew. (The parallel MOD passages in Mark, and Luke can
be related to the outline in Matthew).

 

Bapmom: //ummm, I don't recall anyone claiming that post-tribbers are looking
for an anti-christ. But it is true that if POST-trib is correct
than the NEXT event we would witness is the revealing of the ANTI-christ.//

It is uncool for pretribbers to claim that posties are looking for
the Antichrist. It is also uncool for posties to claim preemies are trying to
GET OUT OF trouble. It is also uncool for preemies to claim that
posties are S&M feaks. It isn't like any of us chose our Eschatology
at the eschato-buffet

BTW, as a pretribber I believe in a post-tribulation gathering/transformation
but to new/improved earthly bodies to live in the physical/earthly
Millinnial Kingdom (MK) of the Messaih. By contrast a 'postribber' believes
in a postribulation rapture/resurrection ONLY.

I notice a serious lack of non-pretribs to relate to or argue against
my following points:

1. Ed: //The first comming of Jesus was dual:

//1A. comming as a babe in a manger about 25 Dec 01BC
1B. comming from hell & the grave in resurrection//

So, if the first coming of Jesus was dual, what does it hurt for the
second coming of Jesus to be dual?

2 Ed: //The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.//

So, if the O.T. speaks of the first and second comings of Jesus
together and we find in the N.T. the two comings of Jesus are seperate,
what is the big deal about the second coming having two phases?

The Just and the Unjust are saved at two seperate resurrections
seperated by the DAY OF THE LORD which is 1,000 years long.
No problem. Why is the 7-year-day seperation of the two comings
such a big deal?

3. Ed: //There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)//

No discussion? does anybody see that in the Harvest MOST OF THE
GRAIN is taken. At the Gleanings, only the last tiny portion of
the grain is taken. So likewise is the pretribulation HARVEST
of saints and the post-tribulation GLEANINGS of saints.
But nobody can argue against it.

 

Bapmom: //Thats not a basis for judging salvation. Those who believe in pre-trib
believe that if you are truly born again you will be raptured,
whether you believe in the rapture or not. Don't read more
into the statement than was there.//

Amen, Sister Bapmom - you are RIGHT ON ! !! !

These verses are quoted uptopic from some unstated version.
The verses are from 1 Thessalonians 4:

16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught
up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

About these verses Bro. Benjamin says:
//IMO, the “them” in v 17, is the saints (1Th 3:13) who come at “the end”,
at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The clouds being spoken
of is a cloud of saints not clouds in the sky.//

Yes, i agree, that is an opinion.
Generally the antecedent for a pronoun is as close as possible
to the noun for which it takes the place.
IMHO (in my Humble Opinion) the "them" in v 17 is the 'dead
in Christ' in verse 16.

Obvously the clouds are not water clouds. Look at the pictures
of the whole earth. There are cloudy spots, there are clear spots.
The pretribulation rapture will take place all over the surface
of the world wherever people are or have been buried..
Note also the difference between the first part of the second coming:
the pretribulation rapture, IN THE CLOUDS and the second part
of the second coming, the Second Advent of Jesus to destroy
the Antichrist and set up the physical/eartly Millinnial Kingdom, WITH THE CLOUDS.

Revelation 9:14:
[14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses,
clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Yep, that army following Jesus will look like a cloud from a long
distane away. That army is heading toward the Holy Land of Yisrael.

Benjamin: //As JohnV wisely says: “I think we should be preaching the first
coming, and let the second coming be concerned about itself.”

//(Mar 13:10) And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

//So I do not care to spend a lot of time debating the trib when
I have so much work to do to be more prepared in effectively
spreading the Gospel.//

BTW, the gospel has been published among all the nations
since Colossians 1:6 was written in 0062AD.

By contrast I have been called to present on Bulletin boards
the Hope and Comfort of the pretribulation rapture coming
of Jesus to the atmosphere the earth. I've been faithful
to this call for 21½-years now.

--Ed the Baptist, the voice of one
crying in the Cyber-wilderness:
"ease-modify the path to the Lord".

quoted above without Version reference:
//(Mar 13:11) But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take
no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate:
but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour , that speak
ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

//(Mar 13:12) Now the brother shall betray the brother to death,
and the father the son; and children shall rise up against
their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

//(Mar 13:13) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's
sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.//

This is a prophecy for the Church Age (AKA: age of gentiles, Age of
Grace). I've shown this with Matthew, Mark 13 is a parallel of Matthew 24
regarding the Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD).

 

oops didn't know it was posting

 

Benjamin: //Strong delusional preflight hopes here? For someone
that’s been engulfed in pretrib debate for 21 years
to think falling away means a rapture flight-WOW!//

You misrepresent me.

Didn't i ever post the below where you could
read it? I'll present it in full below
with the following sentence bolded there also.

I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.

What this means is that though I have been arguing
pretribulation rapture on the bulletin boards (bb)
for 21 years, I have not always believed that
'falling away' meant the rapture. So you misrepresent
my beliefs.


-------------------------------------------
Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The time line according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The time line according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The time line according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

BTW, I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
in error, I'll still hope in the pre-tribulation rapture
as will 90% of Baptists and kindred Christians.

---------------------------------------------------

 

Benjamin: "Now, if God finds me worthy to be here during the tribulation
... "

I find this phrase very odd.

We all Christians must all stand before
the judgement seat (bema) of Christ.

How read ye this?

Luk 21:36 (KJV1611 Edition):
Watch ye therefore, and pray alwayes, that ye may be accompted
worthy to escape all these things that shall come to passe,
and to stand before the sonne of man.

Seems to me Jesus talks more about being worthy to
escape than worthy to be LEFT BEHIND