Is the lake of fire same as gehenna?

In another forum, the discussion was raised about the lake of fire being gehenna. I believe it is. I believe, from an overview of Scripture that the scenario for those who die in sin is...their soul goes to a temporary abode called hades till judgment, then after judgment, into the LOF, and that LOF is gehenna.

As for the righteous dead, they go to a temporary abode called paradise. Each will be judged ACCORDING TO HIS/HER WORKS, and Jesus will reward each according to his/her works. Some peoples' works will be destroyed(1 Cor. 3:15) but the PERSON is still saved.

At the Great White Throne judgment, there shall not only be the souls of those who died in sin before the millenium, but also the souls, both righteous and sinner, of those who died during the millenium.

One prob is that the KJV calls hades, tartarus(the abode of the angels who sinned) and gehenna all hell, with nothing to distinguish between them except it says hell(hades) will be cast into the LOF.

Why should Christians be discussing the fate of the sinners? So that we may be 100% accurate in our witness. Inevitably, we're gonna be asked about hell if we're active witnesses, and while I can't speak for anyone else, I wanna stay ready to answer any and all questions 100% accurately and thoroughly. As such, I believe the LOF and gehenna are one & the same.

As you say, the KJV translates both hades and gehenna as hell, along with tartarus, and makes the distinction between hell and the lake of fire. I contend that this translation is accurate, and that there is no reason to assume that gehenna is the lake of fire. We did get booted out of the versions forum, the issue was originally raised as evidence of doctrinal differences between the KJV and other versions. But this is more than just a version issue. How we interpret one area of the bible will affect other areas of interpretation.

I believe that the main reason for forcing the interpretation that gehenna is the lake of fire is to distance believers from warnings that were obviously spoken to Christ's disciples. If Christ warned His disciples of gehenna, we can say that He was talking about unbelievers because no believer goes to the lake of fire. Many methods have been employed to 'get out from under' warnings in the bible, and this is yet another.

The distinction that is placed on 'hades' and 'gehenna' arises from a false dichotomy. The logic that is used to convict gehenna of being the lake of fire would be thrown out of a court of law. The King James translators must have been aware that these were two different words, why did they make the decision to translate them as the same English word hell? It must have been because they believed the evidence pointed toward them being the same place, and distinct from the lake of fire. I believe that an honest investigation would show that this is at least as likely as the other opinion. But emotion and tradition will tend to cloud this debate.

Originally posted by robycop3:
In another forum, the discussion was raised about the lake of fire being gehenna. I believe it is. I believe, from an overview of Scripture that the scenario for those who die in sin is...their soul goes to a temporary abode called hades till judgment at the great white throne, then after judgment, into the LOF, and that LOF is gehenna.

Click to expand...

Agree. Hades or Hell is the place where the souls of the wicked dead are, they will be reunited with their resurrected bodies and judged at the great white throne, then cast into the Lake of Fire or Gehenna. During the time of Christ, Paradise and hell was separated by a "great chasm" (Luke 16:19-31). Hell is a temporary holding cell while Gehenna is eternal.

Tartarus is the prison for fallen angels (2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 6).

As for the righteous dead, they go to a temporary abode called paradise. Each will be judged ACCORDING TO HIS/HER WORKS, and Jesus will reward each according to his/her works. Some peoples' works will be destroyed(1 Cor. 3:15) but the PERSON is still saved.

Click to expand...

The abode for the righteous dead or Paradise is now empty, at Christ's resurrection he took with him the souls of the righteous dead which included the OT saints. Since His resurrection all souls of the righteous dead go to heaven. Paul saw the souls of those beheaded during the Tribulation in heaven, they will be resurrected with all other righteous souls at the "first resurrection."

The souls of those who have died in Christ since Pentecost will come back with Christ for the Rapture to be reunited with their bodies and resurrected at the first trumpet. At the second trumpet sound, those just resurrected and those still alive in Christ will be changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess. 4:14-18).
All the other righteous souls will be resurrected at the first resurrection at the end of Tribulation.

Only those in the Church will be judged for works at the judgment seat of Christ, all the other righteous saints at God's judgment seat (Rom. 14:10).

At the Great White Throne judgment, there shall not only be the souls of those who died in sin before the millenium, but also the souls, both righteous and sinner, of those who died during the millenium.

Click to expand...

Although Rev. 20:11-15 mentions the book of life, the righteous dead are not in the context of this passage. I believe the great white throne is reserved only for the wicked dead of all time. It says: "The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books (plural) and not the other book of life.

What happens to the righteous dead of the Millennium and those still alive just before the earth's renovation by fire? Apparently Scripture is silent on this. I assume the righteous dead and alive will be caught up the same way as for the Rapture. They will be taken up to the heavenly New Jerusalem before the renovation.

One prob is that the KJV calls hades, tartarus(the abode of the angels who sinned) and gehenna all hell, with nothing to distinguish between them except it says hell(hades) will be cast into the LOF.

Click to expand...

Agree, no need for hell if everybody is in the LOF.

Where does the bible say that gehenna is eternal?

Those who take the mark of the beast, "will be tormented with burning sulfur." "Their torment rises for ever and ever" (Rev. 14:10-11).

The devil will be "thrown into the lake of burning sulfer where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever" (20:10). NIV

That is the lake of fire, where does the bible say that gehenna is the lake of fire? Are you sure this is not just what you have been taught?

sic 'em James!!!

The lake of fire is called the second death, which is separation from God or spiritual death. Death and Hades ends when they are thrown into the lake of fire. The eternal state of God's creation must be in progress if death and Hades no longer exist (Rev. 20:14-15 21:8).

Gehenna receives both the body and soul (Mt. 10:28; Lk. 12:5) whereas Hades receives only the soul (Acts 2:27, 31).

God destroying Sodom and Gomorrah with "burning sulfur" (Gen. 19:24) was a foretaste or "example of those who suffer the punishmnent of eternal fire (Jude 7).

Matthew 10, Luke 12, Jesus is talking to His disciples, who will be raised bodily to stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Unbelievers will not be raised until the Great White Throne, and then they will be cast into the lake of fire. But Jesus is warning His disciples of being cast body and soul into hell at His coming.

Mark 9:47
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Once again, Jesus is speaking to His disciples. Being cast into hell is here contrasted with entering into the kingdom. When do people enter into the kingdom?

Jude 1:7
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

This seems to say that either the fire that rained down on them was eternal fire, or they are suffering the vengeance of eternal fire now. Eternal fire doesn't automatically mean that it goes on and on forever in endless eternity. Eternal can mean age-lasting. I don't care much for going to other versions, but to prove a point:

Jude 1:7 (Young's Literal Translation)
as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before -- an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering.

The same goes for words like everlasting and forever. If the context is endless eternity, that is what it means. If the context is an age, say the millennial age, then the throughout that age is what is meant.

When do people enter into the kingdom?

Click to expand...

The kingdom is within you when you receive Christ as Savior. Luke 17:21

NASB - "eternal fire"
KJV - same
ESV - same
RSV - same
NIV - same

Eternal fire doesn't automatically mean that it goes on and on forever in endless eternity.

Click to expand...

When posters think like this, its time to leave

Originally posted by prophecynut:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> When do people enter into the kingdom?

Click to expand...

The kingdom is within you when you receive Christ as Savior. Luke 17:21
</font>[/QUOTE]This kind of reasoning would be applauded by universalists. If the kingdom in Mark 9 is spiritual, surely so is the fire. You can do better than that.

NASB - "eternal fire"
KJV - same
ESV - same
RSV - same
NIV - same

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Eternal fire doesn't automatically mean that it goes on and on forever in endless eternity.

Click to expand...

When posters think like this, its time to leave

</font>[/QUOTE]All I'm saying is that in the context, the eternal fire doesn't necessarily imply that it is eternally endless. All the fire of God's judgment is eternal, in the sense that it is kindled by the breath of the eternal God. That doesn't necessarily mean that Sodom and Gomorrah are burning today. And if they are burning today, it is not in the lake of fire.

Not to mention that it doesn't say gehenna anywhere near eternal fire.

[ November 23, 2005, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: James_Newman ]

As I said yeaterday, I will answer your message in the now-closed thread. BTW, this is NOT a "false doctrine" from any MV, it's a goof of your own private interpretation of the KJV.
_____________________________________________

James Newman: Those 'sheep' who are being told to enter into the kingdom after the millennium has already occurred are being judged for their works, correct? What works? Those that they committed during the time of the kingdom? Or are you saying that these may be unbelievers who were able to work for their salvation? Surely not!

Readerzz, see what I mean about a private interpretation?

Matthew 25:34-36
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was hungry, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

We know better than to believe anyone will be saved by these works. So who are these sheep?

The righteous of all ages. The Kingdom of God, while it now has citizens, is not yet occupied. THIS KOG IS NOT HEAVEN! it is upon the re-arranged earth, with no sea, with the New Jerusalem on earth as its capitol.

quote:
Are you forgetting those who were alive at His coming, and those born during the millenium?

Is this who you think they are? Believers who are alive at the Lord's return will not enter into the kingdom in natural bodies. But I think you know this.

This is not the issue. The issue is WHO THEY ARE.

1 Corinthians 15:50-52
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Any believers who are alive at the end of the tribulation will be taken to the judgment seat of Christ, they will be changed. So those sheep cannot be believers who survived the tribulation and went through the kingdom in natural bodies, if that is what you are saying.

The millenium is NOT the final KOG upon earth...it's a period in which the devil and his minions are restrained from deceiving the nations.

The dead sinners are NOT resurrected until the Great White Throne judgment. And at His return, it appears that all sinners then living will have joined the AC & his false prophet in an attack upon Jerusalem...but Jesus takes'em all out, casting the AC & his prophet into gehenna. The other sinners will go to hades to await the GWT judgment at the end of the millenium. Near the end of the millenium, Satan will be loosed to deceive the nations again.

If you think they are people who were born in natural bodies during the kingdom and are being judged for their actions during the millennium, I don't know if that makes much sense. The Lord says these people fed the hungry, gave drink to the thirsty, clothed the naked, visited sick people and those in prison. This sounds like the things that we are supposed to be doing today, not the things that will be happening in the kingdom. Where do you find this type of suffering during the millennium? Do you have a scripture for it?

NOT BELIEVING IN JESUS as Lord, savior, and Son Of God is all the sin one needs to be condemned, and BELIEVING IN HIM IN SUBMISSION as Lord, Savior, & God, calling on His name, repenting of sin, asking Him to forgive your sins, is all that's necessary for salvation by Him. The thief on the cross beside Him had no chance to perform any good work, nor to be baptized, but HE BELIEVED, ASKED JESUS FOR FORGIVENESS, & Jesus saved him!

Isaiah 65:19-24
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die a hundred years old; but the sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

Who are the hungry? Who are the sick?

This is plainly referring to the millenium. These are mortals; they have offspring. And they labor. Their days as those of a tree, but trees eventually die.


quote: Read the below verse CAREFULLY. Clearly, Jesus is referring to the throne He NOW occupies, on His Father's right hand, and to the people who die righteous. Jesus overcame BEFORE HE DIED, and the fact that He DID die pretty well nails down that point.

Revelation 3:21
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

I don't think that Jesus is saying that overcomers will be invited to the third heaven to sit on the throne of the Lord God Almighty. That is where Jesus is now. The throne He is talking about sharing with His overcoming brethren is His earthly throne, which Jesus will be reigning from.

Now you're getting somewhere.

Isaiah 14:13-14
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Revelation 2:26-27
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Having power over the nations is not the same as reigning from the third heaven, above the stars of God.

Again, something's sinking into you.

However, this has nothing to do with gehenna being the LOF. Now, there are only three places of punishment named in Scripture...hades, tartarus, and gehenna, the LOF. Now, if gehenna is NOT the LOF, there are sinners who won't enter gehenna at all, since hades will yield up its dead for the GWT judgment, and from there they go to the LOF. YET, JESUS SAYS IT'S BETTER TO ENTER INTO LIFE, INTO THE KOG MAIMED THAN TO BE CAST INTO...GEHENNA! Now, if gehenna isn't the LOF, where does it enetr into the mix? It's not hades. It's not tartarus. That leaves ONLY the LOF that Jesus is speaking of, as in Matt.9:45, He saus "cast into gehenna, into the fire that shall never be quenched". Remember, Jesus was speaking to His disciples, to whom "gehenna" held a special meaning as the "garbage dump" of Jerusalem. And nowhere does Scripture mention anyone being CAST into hades, but it DOES mention people being CAST into GEHENNA, Mark 9:46 "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." You argue that a fire can burn itself out w/o being quenched, but what's your counter for a worm that doesn't die?

NOW...IF THE GEHENNA MENTIONED BY JESUS IS NOT THE LOF OR HADES, WHAT IS IT?

[ November 23, 2005, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: robycop3 ]

James Newman: All I'm saying is that in the context, the eternal fire doesn't necessarily imply that it is eternally endless.

What is NOT endless about anything God calls eternal?

All the fire of God's judgment is eternal, in the sense that it is kindled by the breath of the eternal God.

Then why do ya say it's NOT endless?

That doesn't necessarily mean that Sodom and Gomorrah are burning today. And if they are burning today, it is not in the lake of fire.

The population is burning in hades.

Not to mention that it doesn't say gehenna anywhere near eternal fire.

BUUZZ!!

Mark 9:43, KJV "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell(gehenna), into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell(gehenna), into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Also, see Matt. 18.

Originally posted by James_Newman:
That is the lake of fire, where does the bible say that gehenna is the lake of fire? Are you sure this is not just what you have been taught?

Click to expand...

Right next to where it says "Holy Trinity". You DO believe in the Holy Trinity, dontcha?

James Newman: Eternal fire doesn't automatically mean that it goes on and on forever in endless eternity.

Then please show us where it goes out!

The fire of hades will be blended with that of gehenna when hades is cast into gehenna, but it does NOT go out...it merely blends with gehenna's fire, same as earthly fire blends when fire is placed into fire. Please prove this wrong...IF YOU CAN.

Originally posted by robycop3:
As I said yeaterday, I will answer your message in the now-closed thread. BTW, this is NOT a "false doctrine" from any MV, it's a goof of your own private interpretation of the KJV.
_____________________________________________

James Newman: Those 'sheep' who are being told to enter into the kingdom after the millennium has already occurred are being judged for their works, correct? What works? Those that they committed during the time of the kingdom? Or are you saying that these may be unbelievers who were able to work for their salvation? Surely not!

Readerzz, see what I mean about a private interpretation?

Matthew 25:34-36
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was hungry, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

We know better than to believe anyone will be saved by these works. So who are these sheep?

The righteous of all ages. The Kingdom of God, while it now has citizens, is not yet occupied. THIS KOG IS NOT HEAVEN! it is upon the re-arranged earth, with no sea, with the New Jerusalem on earth as its capitol.

quote:
Are you forgetting those who were alive at His coming, and those born during the millenium?

Is this who you think they are? Believers who are alive at the Lord's return will not enter into the kingdom in natural bodies. But I think you know this.

This is not the issue. The issue is WHO THEY ARE.

Click to expand...

Yes, who are they? You say they are the 'righteous of all ages'. They are being judged according to works, so I agree that they are righteous. That is not in question. But if at the great white throne our entrance into eternal life is dependent upon our works, then we must be working to be saved. The goats are being cast out of this kingdom because of their lack of righteousness, this is plain. Is our final salvation conditioned upon our works? That is what you are telling me.

Matthew 25:31-32
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

The kingdom of God will be established when Christ returns. Inheriting a kingdom implies kingship. These sheep are reigning in this kingdom. Nowhere in the bible does it say that we will reign for eternity in the kingdom of God. The millennium is a special time when Christ shares His throne with His faithful servants. That is the kingdom He is speaking of.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

These goats are appearing at Christ's throne before the millennium.

1 Corinthians 15:50-52
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Any believers who are alive at the end of the tribulation will be taken to the judgment seat of Christ, they will be changed. So those sheep cannot be believers who survived the tribulation and went through the kingdom in natural bodies, if that is what you are saying.

The millenium is NOT the final KOG upon earth...it's a period in which the devil and his minions are restrained from deceiving the nations.

The dead sinners are NOT resurrected until the Great White Throne judgment. And at His return, it appears that all sinners then living will have joined the AC & his false prophet in an attack upon Jerusalem...but Jesus takes'em all out, casting the AC & his prophet into gehenna. The other sinners will go to hades to await the GWT judgment at the end of the millenium. Near the end of the millenium, Satan will be loosed to deceive the nations again.

If you think they are people who were born in natural bodies during the kingdom and are being judged for their actions during the millennium, I don't know if that makes much sense. The Lord says these people fed the hungry, gave drink to the thirsty, clothed the naked, visited sick people and those in prison. This sounds like the things that we are supposed to be doing today, not the things that will be happening in the kingdom. Where do you find this type of suffering during the millennium? Do you have a scripture for it?

NOT BELIEVING IN JESUS as Lord, savior, and Son Of God is all the sin one needs to be condemned, and BELIEVING IN HIM IN SUBMISSION as Lord, Savior, & God, calling on His name, repenting of sin, asking Him to forgive your sins, is all that's necessary for salvation by Him. The thief on the cross beside Him had no chance to perform any good work, nor to be baptized, but HE BELIEVED, ASKED JESUS FOR FORGIVENESS, & Jesus saved him!

Isaiah 65:19-24
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die a hundred years old; but the sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

Who are the hungry? Who are the sick?

This is plainly referring to the millenium. These are mortals; they have offspring. And they labor. Their days as those of a tree, but trees eventually die.


quote: Read the below verse CAREFULLY. Clearly, Jesus is referring to the throne He NOW occupies, on His Father's right hand, and to the people who die righteous. Jesus overcame BEFORE HE DIED, and the fact that He DID die pretty well nails down that point.

Revelation 3:21
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

I don't think that Jesus is saying that overcomers will be invited to the third heaven to sit on the throne of the Lord God Almighty. That is where Jesus is now. The throne He is talking about sharing with His overcoming brethren is His earthly throne, which Jesus will be reigning from.

Now you're getting somewhere.

Isaiah 14:13-14
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Revelation 2:26-27
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Having power over the nations is not the same as reigning from the third heaven, above the stars of God.

Again, something's sinking into you.

However, this has nothing to do with gehenna being the LOF. Now, there are only three places of punishment named in Scripture...hades, tartarus, and gehenna, the LOF. Now, if gehenna is NOT the LOF, there are sinners who won't enter gehenna at all, since hades will yield up its dead for the GWT judgment, and from there they go to the LOF. YET, JESUS SAYS IT'S BETTER TO ENTER INTO LIFE, INTO THE KOG MAIMED THAN TO BE CAST INTO...GEHENNA!

Click to expand...

The thousand year kingdom. The only kingdom Christ ever talks about.

Now, if gehenna isn't the LOF, where does it enetr into the mix? It's not hades. It's not tartarus. That leaves ONLY the LOF that Jesus is speaking of, as in Matt.9:45, He saus "cast into gehenna, into the fire that shall never be quenched". Remember, Jesus was speaking to His disciples, to whom "gehenna" held a special meaning as the "garbage dump" of Jerusalem. And nowhere does Scripture mention anyone being CAST into hades, but it DOES mention people being CAST into GEHENNA, Mark 9:46 "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." You argue that a fire can burn itself out w/o being quenched, but what's your counter for a worm that doesn't die?

NOW...IF THE GEHENNA MENTIONED BY JESUS IS NOT THE LOF OR HADES, WHAT IS IT?

Click to expand...

It is hades. The worm that does not die is the man.
Job 25:6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?
You saw the rich man in hades in conscious torment, begging for a drop of water to cool his tongue. He is the worm that dieth not.

Originally posted by robycop3:
James Newman: Eternal fire doesn't automatically mean that it goes on and on forever in endless eternity.

Then please show us where it goes out!

The fire of hades will be blended with that of gehenna when hades is cast into gehenna, but it does NOT go out...it merely blends with gehenna's fire, same as earthly fire blends when fire is placed into fire. Please prove this wrong...IF YOU CAN.

Click to expand...

The fire of hades will be blended with the LAKE OF FIRE. No one ever said that the fire in hades was going to go out. You were the one who originally argued that since the fire was unquenchable it must be the lake of fire. Now you admit that the fire in hades is just as unquenchable as the fire in gehenna...

James Newman: As you say, the KJV translates both hades and gehenna as hell, along with tartarus, and makes the distinction between hell and the lake of fire. I contend that this translation is accurate, and that there is no reason to assume that gehenna is the lake of fire.

Why not? Gehenna is translated hell in most versions. And there's no verse in any version I know of that outright says hades, tartarus, and gehenna are all hell.

We did get booted out of the versions forum, the issue was originally raised as evidence of doctrinal differences between the KJV and other versions. But this is more than just a version issue. How we interpret one area of the bible will affect other areas of interpretation.

Right. So let's see what you do with gehenna, a place JESUS names, if it isn't hades or the LOF.

I believe that the main reason for forcing the interpretation that gehenna is the lake of fire is to distance believers from warnings that were obviously spoken to Christ's disciples.

Now, why would Christ's warnings to His disciples not apply to everyone?

If Christ warned His disciples of gehenna, we can say that He was talking about unbelievers because no believer goes to the lake of fire.

So, why distance His warnings to His disciples from unbelievers, THE ONES WHO NEED THEM MOST? Jesus was TEACHING His disciples, giving them His words to preach among the nations after He was gone. Obviously, eleven of His disciples didn't need such a message for a warning.


Many methods have been employed to 'get out from under' warnings in the bible, and this is yet another.

Why? His warnings may have FIRST given to His disciples, but now they're available for everyone to read or hear.

The distinction that is placed on 'hades' and 'gehenna' arises from a false dichotomy. The logic that is used to convict gehenna of being the lake of fire would be thrown out of a court of law.

Actually, both these premises are wrong. The LOF=gehenna thing is based upon the FINALITY of the LOF, being called gehenna be JESUS. remember, JESUS contrasts entering into LIFE with being CAST into gehenna. NOWHERE DOES SCRIPTURE EVEN HINT AT ANYONE BEING CAST INTO HADES, but it OFTEN mentions ones being CAST into gehenna. And nowhere does Scripture say GEHENNA delivers up the dead within it, but it DOES say HADES shall deliver up its dead.


The King James translators must have been aware that these were two different words, why did they make the decision to translate them as the same English word hell?

Because someone goofed...or all the places of punishment were considered hell by them. Hell was a general term for a very unpleasant place in KJV days, and by any standard, we must consider hades, tartarus, and gehenna(LOF) very unpleasant places.


It must have been because they believed the evidence pointed toward them being the same place, and distinct from the lake of fire.

Jesus plainly speaks of people being cast into gehenna. We know it's not the literal gehenna, Jerusalem's trash dump. Remember, Jesus called Jerusalem "Sodom". (Rev.11:8) Now, did He not know the difference, or was He referring to J's SPIRITUAL STATE? Remember, 'gehenna' had a special meaning to Jerusalem's people, as did 'Sodom'.


I believe that an honest investigation would show that this is at least as likely as the other opinion. But emotion and tradition will tend to cloud this debate.

Seems as if it already has, on YOUR side. You're trying to justiify the KJV's calling all the places of punishment "hell" while slamming some MVs for using the actual Greek words, kinda like "You'll understand when you understand". Remember, it was JESUS who added gehenna to the mix, so therefore it MUST exist. And it's NOT hades, as hades isn't final.

An overview of Scripture tells us that the dead sinners' souls go to hades, then to the GWT judgment, then are cast into the LOF(gehenna). JESUS said "CAST into GEHENNA". I believe JESUS over any man's guesswork.

Lemme reiterate to the readers seeing this discussion for the first time that its purpose is to establish the CORRECT answers for the request of new believers to tell'em about hell. If you're an active witness, you WILL be asked, & I always wanna be 100% accurate in my answers while witnessing.

This question arose when we asked the KJVOs to post any false doctrines that could be derived strictly from newer versions, and this is the best they could do.

Originally posted by robycop3:
James Newman: As you say, the KJV translates both hades and gehenna as hell, along with tartarus, and makes the distinction between hell and the lake of fire. I contend that this translation is accurate, and that there is no reason to assume that gehenna is the lake of fire.

Why not? Gehenna is translated hell in most versions. And there's no verse in any version I know of that outright says hades, tartarus, and gehenna are all hell.

Click to expand...

But isn't that exactly what the KJV says? They are all hell.

We did get booted out of the versions forum, the issue was originally raised as evidence of doctrinal differences between the KJV and other versions. But this is more than just a version issue. How we interpret one area of the bible will affect other areas of interpretation.

Right. So let's see what you do with gehenna, a place JESUS names, if it isn't hades or the LOF.

Click to expand...

It is hades or the lake of fire. But it isn't the lake of fire.

I believe that the main reason for forcing the interpretation that gehenna is the lake of fire is to distance believers from warnings that were obviously spoken to Christ's disciples.

Now, why would Christ's warnings to His disciples not apply to everyone?

Click to expand...

They do apply to everyone, including Christians.

If Christ warned His disciples of gehenna, we can say that He was talking about unbelievers because no believer goes to the lake of fire.

So, why distance His warnings to His disciples from unbelievers, THE ONES WHO NEED THEM MOST? Jesus was TEACHING His disciples, giving them His words to preach among the nations after He was gone. Obviously, eleven of His disciples didn't need such a message for a warning.

Many methods have been employed to 'get out from under' warnings in the bible, and this is yet another.

Why? His warnings may have FIRST given to His disciples, but now they're available for everyone to read or hear.

Click to expand...

And he that hath an ear, let him hear.

The distinction that is placed on 'hades' and 'gehenna' arises from a false dichotomy. The logic that is used to convict gehenna of being the lake of fire would be thrown out of a court of law.

Actually, both these premises are wrong. The LOF=gehenna thing is based upon the FINALITY of the LOF, being called gehenna be JESUS. remember, JESUS contrasts entering into LIFE with being CAST into gehenna. NOWHERE DOES SCRIPTURE EVEN HINT AT ANYONE BEING CAST INTO HADES, but it OFTEN mentions ones being CAST into gehenna. And nowhere does Scripture say GEHENNA delivers up the dead within it, but it DOES say HADES shall deliver up its dead.

Click to expand...

You have made an assumption from the very beginning. You assume because the Lord uses two different names that He is referring to two different places. Clark Kent is never seen with Superman either, so I guess they must be two different people. I mean, Clark Kent wears glasses, for crying out loud.

The King James translators must have been aware that these were two different words, why did they make the decision to translate them as the same English word hell?

Because someone goofed...or all the places of punishment were considered hell by them. Hell was a general term for a very unpleasant place in KJV days, and by any standard, we must consider hades, tartarus, and gehenna(LOF) very unpleasant places.


It must have been because they believed the evidence pointed toward them being the same place, and distinct from the lake of fire.

Jesus plainly speaks of people being cast into gehenna. We know it's not the literal gehenna, Jerusalem's trash dump. Remember, Jesus called Jerusalem "Sodom". (Rev.11:8) Now, did He not know the difference, or was He referring to J's SPIRITUAL STATE? Remember, 'gehenna' had a special meaning to Jerusalem's people, as did 'Sodom'.

Click to expand...

Your right, the point was that it was unpleasant. It was hot and painful and you didn't want to be there. But you say that somehom Gehenna meant more than this, that even though hades was hot and unpleasant and you didn't want to be there, the word Gehenna meant eternal torment, because it was the name of a trash heap. Surely you must have a source to show that this is indeed what the Jews understood gehenna to be. I havent been able to find that source, so if you have it please show me. Most Jews today don't seem to believe that gehenna is eternal. When did that change?

I believe that an honest investigation would show that this is at least as likely as the other opinion. But emotion and tradition will tend to cloud this debate.

Seems as if it already has, on YOUR side. You're trying to justiify the KJV's calling all the places of punishment "hell" while slamming some MVs for using the actual Greek words, kinda like "You'll understand when you understand". Remember, it was JESUS who added gehenna to the mix, so therefore it MUST exist. And it's NOT hades, as hades isn't final.

Click to expand...

I'm sure I can find you a non-kjv source for the same.

An overview of Scripture tells us that the dead sinners' souls go to hades, then to the GWT judgment, then are cast into the LOF(gehenna). JESUS said "CAST into GEHENNA". I believe JESUS over any man's guesswork.

Click to expand...

Those not written in the book of life (because we are all sinners in case you forgot) are cast into the lake of fire, after the thousand years are finished. The sheep and the goats are rewarded according to works, BEFORE the thousand years at Christ's coming.

Lemme reiterate to the readers seeing this discussion for the first time that its purpose is to establish the CORRECT answers for the request of new believers to tell'em about hell. If you're an active witness, you WILL be asked, & I always wanna be 100% accurate in my answers while witnessing.

This question arose when we asked the KJVOs to post any false doctrines that could be derived strictly from newer versions, and this is the best they could do.

Click to expand...

This is much deeper than KJV vs modern versions. This is about laodicean Christianity that has lost the beginning of wisdom.

Mr. Newman, all your dodging will NOT let you escape the fact that gehenna & the LOF are the same. And your little Kent-Superman supports MY view, not YOURS. Why? JESUS uses both gehenna & LOF when speaking of the same place. When He said gehenna as recorded in Matthew and Mark, and LOF in Revelation, what else was he talking about? We know hades isn't forever, but the LOF is. Clark Kent wears glasses to help conceal his ID as Supes, while JESUS wants everyone to know what hell is, so they can avoid it through Him. The LOF and gehenna are no more two separate places than Kent & Supes are different people in the comix.

Besides that, you've thoroughly discredited yourself with the below material. I thought for awhile you mighta had something worthwhile, but the below shows me you're just another poseur chock-fulla false doctrines, and not just the KJVO myth, verifying my claim that false breeds false.

This is much deeper than KJV vs modern versions. This is about laodicean Christianity that has lost the beginning of wisdom.

Thanx for revealing the source of your goofy false doctrines to the readership!

This shows us you believe that goofy and false SEVEN CHURCH-AGE doctrine. Know who spread it in the USA and Canada? You prolly do, but lemme inform the other readers...It was a charlatan named William Marrion Branham, a quack who made Jim Bakker look legit! Branham was mostly Oneness-Pentecostal, but he started some false doctrines uniquely his own. He did NOT believe in the Holy Trinity; he preached Modalism, that is, one Being who became Father, Son, or Holy Spirit as needed. He taught that baptism should be only in Jesus' name and not Father, Son, Hily Spirit as Jesus had said. he taught the blasphemous "serpent seed" false doctrine, as preached today by Arnold Murray of Shepherd's Chapel. He proclaimed himself a major prophet, the return of Elijah, under Divine protection. However, his god musta taken a day off, as he was killed by a drunk driver in 1965.

Play baseball? You sure out in left field with THIS gem:

It is hades. The worm that does not die is the man.
Job 25:6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?
You saw the rich man in hades in conscious torment, begging for a drop of water to cool his tongue. He is the worm that dieth not.

Excluding the Scripture, THIS IS ONENESS- PENTECOSTAL BUNK!!!!!!!!!!! Over & over, JESUS says "THEIR worm", not "their wormS". And Job is saying that to God we are as worms are to us, except that He DOES love us.

You call yourself a Baptist and believe Pentecostal garbage like this? Bah! Humbug!