When was Jesus born?

I'm not. In fact I normally say that I commemorate the birth of Christ on Christmas day.

I realize however that 12/25 as His birthday is within the realm of possibility, after all we are talking about the things God has done and not Pearl Harbor Day.

HankD

 

12/25 is contraindicated by Scripture. The only time the shepherds were in the FIELDS watching their flocks were during the two lambing seasons: spring and fall. Baby lambs would get trampled in the folds if they were born there. This is one very important clue that has nothing to do with warm or cold 'spells'.

Please, please read what Barry's research found!

 

And it's going to be 47 here in Alaska tomorrow. So what? The average weather at that time is treacherous enough that a census would not be held at that time. </font>[/QUOTE]The census took several years to implement. It was ongoing the entire time.

"The Census order was given by Augustus in 8 BC, but it was implemented province by province. Provincial Italy was taxed in 8/7 BC. Rome itself was taxed in 7/6 BC. As for the province of Judea, Luke records that it was taxed when 'Cyrenius was first Governor of Syria.' Senator P. Sulpicius Quirinius, otherwise known as Cyrenius, was Governor of Syria twice. As Luke states, it was on the first occasion that the world census occurred. Quirinius was Legate (Governor) to Syria an that first occasion for 5 years during the Homonadensian War. He then become Advisor to Gaius Caesar in I BC. Additionally, the Christian historian Tertullian records that the Judean census took place when Sentius Saturninus was Proconsul to Syria, attending to the day to day running of the province, which included Judea. He left early in 2 BC to be replaced by Quinctillius Varus, about a year before the death of Herod, who was the king of Judea. These facts indicate that the census acted on by Joseph and Mary had been completed by late in 3 BC. This is confirmed by the date of Herod's death. According to Matthew, Herod ordered the slaughter of all children two years old and under, according to the time the Star first appeared to the Wise Men. Therefore, if we back-track two years from the date of Herod's death, this will give the latest possible date for the first appearance of the Star and an approximate date for the birth of the Christ-Child."
http://www.setterfield.org/star.htm

 

That's why I have said (maybe not in this thread) that there are several evidences that show clearly when it was not, as well as several that point to when it was. They have to all be taken together, and you can't take any by themselves. The weather is an indicator, the fact that they were watching in the fields by night, etc.

 

I'm of course not arguing the "nothing is impossible with God" argument. I'm referring to the curcimstancial pointers of the time.

That alone isn't a sufficient factor. When considering the duration of Joseph and Mary's journey, plus the journey that everyone in the census would have to have undergone, it does not bode well for a late december birth. Why would the Romans issue a census at a time of year when travelling is difficult? They would not. They would have wanted everyone counted, and weather conditions that precluded travel would have been counterproductive.

But again, it dun't really matter, does it? It's an interesting discussion, but theologically unimportant.

 

He could have been, but He wasn't. Read the article and see if it doesn't fit all the facts historically as well as what the Bible relates.

 

Setterfield started out with the right time, but his analyst soon fell apart.

According to my research, 8 BC was the actual year of the census after it was declared the year before. Because of slow communication that was much slower than snail mail, declarations of coming censuses were given the year before they were taken, those born in the declared year would be counted in the total when the census was taken. Censuses were conducted every 14 years, the next one after 8 BC was taken in AD 6 and is mentioned in Acts 5:37.

Correct, 8BC and AD 6.

Anybody consider why the inns were all filled up when Joseph and Mary arrived in Bethlehem? What was going on that caused the temporary influx of travelers?

 

The problem with that statement is that there is nohistorical accuracy of the date. It was picked hundreds of years later to coincide with secular tradition, which itself came from an old pagan obvervance.

FOr some reason, there seems to be a fair amount of hesitation for people to disassociate the observance with the actual event. I fail to see the reason for this, other than human insecurity.

Again, it's not impossible, but extremely unlikely. And no matter how one views it, it's completely irrelevant to one's theological beliefs. Jesus would still be Lord if he were born on February 31st.

 

I agree that it's not important to the message of salvation, but I think it's important because it's included in the Bible.

God instituted the feast days for a reason. I think the implications in Scripture with his birth are quite important (he was born at the feast of tabernacles, and he came and tabernacled among men on the surface), as well as the extreme possibility that the light of the world was coceived during the festival of lights.

Since Jesus was crucified in 29 AD, birth in 6 BC would have put him in his 33rd year. (Remember there is no year zero and the 34th year doesn't begin until 33 has been completed.) Theologically, in that year, he was in the ground for not only 3 days, but for 3 Sabbaths. (There's more than one kind of Sabbath.) He was buried on Wednesday evening, and when they arrived at the tomb on Sunday morning, he was already gone.

With the sort of theological importance placed on his death, burial, and resurrection, I think there is much theological importance placed on his conception and birth.

 

Hope of Glory:

We know from Scripture that Jesus had to be born when Quirinius was governor of Syria and a census was in progress, what evidence do you have to support the 6 BC date?

Agree, from 1 BC to AD 1 is one year.

3 Sabbaths? I know of two, High Sabbath and the weekly Sabbath on Saturday. Sunday, the third day, was not a Sabbath, but the Lord's day.

In your post you gave the answer to my question: "why were the inns all filled up when Joseph and Mary arrived in Bethlehem?" What is it?

 

His birth is recorded. His date of birth is not. Hence, while his birth is theologically important, his date of birth is not.

Celebrations of the winter solstice were instituted by men, not God. The celebration of Christ's birth is likewise instituted by men. It's neither commanded by God, nor condemned by Him.

Where does scripture record this? Perhaps I missed it.

We do not know that Jesus was crucified in 29AD. We know that Jesus was baptized in 29AD, since Luke records it as being "in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Ceasar" when Pilate was "governor of Judea". If we presume that Jesus preached for about 3 1/2 years, then he would have been crucified at or before the Passover of 33 A.D (also noting that the timing of the Passover Feast was related to the full moon, putting it at the years 30 or 33 A.D.) Again, that's presuming a 3.5 year ministry.

But again, the exact dates of these events is unimportant, no matter how interesting we find the conversation. That they happenned is what is important.

 

there are two kinds of Sabbaths. What many people don’t think about is that the Sabbath spoken of here was not the weekly Sabbath day, which begins Friday at sunset and lasts until Saturday sunset. [John 19:31] Here, the apostle John tells us specifically, that the day on which Jesus was crucified immediately preceded a special Sabbath, and not just a regular weekly Sabbath; it’s called a “high” day or a “great” day.

This Sabbath, we see from Scriptures, was “a high day”. In addition to the weekly Sabbaths, God also commanded seven Holy Days, or annual Sabbaths (Leviticus 23), most of which could fall on different days of the week. Sometimes, the annual Sabbath could also fall on a weekly Sabbath.

Jesus the Christ, like the Passover lamb that was killed to spare the ancient Israelites from the angel of death, was slain on the preparation day for the Passover. The Passover is observed on the 14th day of the first month of the Hebrew calendar.

The Jews were rushing to finish the burials of the condemned men before the annual or high Sabbath began at sunset. This preparation day was the day before the Passover.

The day after Passover begins the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is also an annual or high Sabbath.

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Since the Bible tells us that Jesus was born before the death of Herod, and we know that Herod died in 4 BC by our current reckoning, then Jesus had to have been born before that. We know from other Scriptural evidence that it was as much as two years before the arrival of the Magi. Based on the information we have on hand, then Jesus was born somewhere between 4-6 BC.

Since we know that he was crucified in 29 AD, 6 BC would have put him in his 33rd year, and 25 September was the beginning of the festival that year.

 

Hope of Glory

Agree with your Sabbaths during the Passion week.

Passover - Thursday
Annual High Sabbath - Friday
Weekly Sabbath - Saturday
Lord's day - Sunday

Christ buried before sunset Thursday, resurrected before sunrise on the Lord's day.

Here's where I disagree.

Herod died at Jericho March-April of 4 BC. Jericho was situated in the southern portion of the Jordan Valley about 10 miles NW of the mouth of the Dead Sea. Herod was on his death bed in Jericho, he could not of met with the Magi in Jerusalem.

The Magi were from the east, probably Persia or southern Arabia. They would not of set out on their long journey to the Holy Land before March-April. They would of arrived after Herod died.

Quirinius was not governor of Syria 4-6 BC as required by Scripture.

There was no census conducted 4-6 BC as required by Scripture.

Quirinius fought the Homonadensean war in Asia Minor 10-8 BC, which was the last year of his first term as chief legate of Syria. His successor in 8 BC was Sentius Saturninius and his assistant Volumius.

The first census declared by Augustus was 23 BC when he received tribunician power on 27th June 23. The second census 14 years later in 8 BC and the third 6 AD.

What evidence do you have supporting the 4-6 time line for the birth, I see none?

 

This is not a true statement, BTW.

I've given quite a bit on another thread, but I will cut and paste relevant parts here.

To start off, we know that the year is wrong. A simple clerical error threw the year off by quite a bit. In 525 AD, Pope John I commissioned the scholar Dionysius Exiguus to establish a feast calendar for the Church. Dionysius also estimated the year of Christ's birth based upon the founding of the city of Rome. Because of insufficient historical data he arrived at a date at least a few years later than the actual event.

Since the Bible tells us that Jesus was born before the death of Herod, and we know that Herod died in 4 BC by our current reckoning, then Jesus had to have been born before that. (Although it is possible that he died as late as April in 3 BC.) We know from other Scriptural evidence that it was as much as two years before the arrival of the Magi. Based on the information we have on hand, then Jesus was born somewhere between 4-6 BC. Most evidence points to 6 BC, and 25th of September would be the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles in that year. (If you want, I will repost the Scriptural evidence that he was born at this time of year.) The latest he could have been born would be 3 BC, and the earliest would be 8 BC, but 6 BC fits all the Scriptural prophecies.

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Jesus made many prophecies concerning his death, burial, and resurrection. Matthew 16:21 says, “From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.” Matthew 17:22-23 says, “And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men: And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.”

[Mark 8:31] Here, Jesus states explicitly that His resurrection would occur after or at the end of three days. Not after one day, or one and a half days, or two days, but after three days. So, Jesus must have been resurrected just as the third day was ending, which was three days and three nights after He was placed in the tomb.

This is the only way that the prophecies could be consistent. Are they consistent? If not, the Bible is worthless, because Jesus is a flawed Messiah. But, the prophecies are consistent. When some of His followers came to the tomb early on Sunday morning, the angels told them that He was no longer there. Matthew 28:6 tells us, “He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.”

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We know that 29AD is the only year that fulfills all the prophecies for his death, burial, and resurrection. Forget the secular evidence; if this event does not fulfill prophecy, then the Scriptures are useless and should be thrown away.

Jesus was crucified on Wednesday, and entombed on Thursday, according to the Jewish calendar (Wednesday evening by our reckoning). That Thursday was a high Sabbath; it was the Passover. Christ is our Passover and He shields us, just as the little Passover lambs shielded the firstborn children in Egypt. Remember, the Passover is just for the firstborn, not all the children. It’s about position. Jesus died for all, but the Bible tells us that His blood was shed for many. He died that all might be saved. We’re saved by His death, but we’re sanctified by His blood.

The second day in the tomb, beginning Thursday evening, was a high Sabbath; it was the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. This feast represents cleanness; you had to sweep all the leaven or impurities from your house. 1 Corinthians 5:6-7 says, “Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us,” and Galatians 5:9 says, “A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.” Leaven represents Phariseeism, or the traditions of men, as opposed to the laws of God. Sort of like the traditions surrounding Easter.

The third day in the grave, from Friday evening until Saturday evening, was a weekly Sabbath, which was given as a covenant to man, as a type of the coming Kingdom rest of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

He rested in the heart of the Earth for three Sabbaths, and that completely and utterly fulfilled the sign of His authenticity, that He would spend three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The Bible tells us that when He died, his body was in the grave, His spirit went to be with the father, and His soul went to hell (Sheol). In all three He rested, and all three are represented in the three types of Sabbaths that are represented here. It’s complete: Body, soul, and spirit.

This could only have happened in 29AD. Subtract 33 years from that, and you get 4 BC as the latest possible date for his birth and 6 BC as the earliest. Anything else would leave prophecy unfulfilled and he would be a flawed Messiah.

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Not only are these the only dates that could fulfill prophecy and history, but they are also the only dates that fulfill the implications of the Feasts.

It does not, however, fulfill the wishes and desires of modern man.

I don't think it's important when we celebrate. But, I do think it's important to know when and know the full implications in Scripture.

 

Nothing accomplished, still no evidence confirming the 4-6 BC birth. Still incorrect on the Passion week.

For certain the High Sabbath ran from sunset Thursday to sunset Friday, Christ had to be buried before the High Sabbath began at sunset Thursday.

Passover had to be sunset Wednesday to sunset Thursday.

High Sabbath - sunset Thursday to sunset Friday, one night and one day in tomb.

Weekly Sabbath - sunset Friday to sunset Saturday, second night and second day in tomb.

Lord's day - sunset Saturday to sunset Sunday, third night in the tomb and resurrected on the third day.

Antiquities 17:42-45 states Herod in 6 BC executed those who were predicting the coming of a Judaic Messiah. According to your time line, Herod heard of the Messiah's coming in 4 BC, two years after he gave the orders to kill all infants under 2 in Bethlehem.

Augustus, in his Monumentum Ancyranum mentions a statistical enumeration of Roman citizens in 8 BC, the same year for census taking in Jerusalem and two years before Herod's death edith in 6 BC.

I've given evidence that His birth could not of been 4-6 BC, you still haven't verified those years with Scripture or secular records.

 

They discovered the empty tomb on Sunday morning. If he were in the tomb three days and three nights, and the tomb is empty on Sunday morning, he was in the grave from Wednesday sunset through Saturday sunset, by our current reckoning.

Passover - Sunset Wednesday through Sunset Thursday: One night and one day.
Feast of Unleavened Bread - Sunset Thursday through sunset Friday: Two nights and Two day
Weekly Sabbath - Sunset Friday through Sunset Saturday: Three nights and three days.

They found the empty tomb at daybreak on Sunday morning. If there's another day in there, why did they not go to annoint his body then? To fulfill prophecy? What good is self-fulfilling prophecy?

I've given plenty of evidence for the 6 BC date (as well as proof that it could not have been after 4 BC, nor before 8 BC), and you can choose to ignore it if you wish. If it's before 7 BC or after 5 BC, then it makes Jesus older or younger than 33, so that would create an ambiguity in Scriptures. (The time frame for making him about 33; otherwise, he would be about 34 or about 35.) You may believe in a literal Good Friday burial and Sunday resurrection (many do), that's your right. But, that doesn't make it true and it doesn't fit Scriptures, nor does it fit the secular world's calendars.

 

"I've given plenty of evidence for the 6 BC date"

So far you have provided assumptions as to the date, just like everyone else.

The annual High Sabbath was sunset Thursday to sunset Friday, there's no way to change this. The day before, sunset Wednesday to sunset Thursday, has to be Passover, no exceptions. He was buried before sunset Thursday and not the generally accepted Good Friday, the day before the weekly Sabbath.

Thanks for your input, no need to continue our discussion.

Chronology of Jesus:

B.C.
8 - Census by Augustus, Birth of Jesus
6 - Death edict by Herod
4 - Herod dies

A.D.
5 - Jesus age 12 in the temple
29 - Baptised 15th year of Tiberius
33 April 3 - Crucifixtion

Jesus almost 40 at death.

 

First, the "High Sabbath" to which John refers was the first of the two Holy Convocations God commanded during Passover Week in Exodus 12. The "preparation day" was the same day which was begun after the previous sunset by the eating of the paschal meal. Remember, the Jews who'd accused Jesus didn't wanna be defiled from eating the Passover.(John 18:28) Since the paschal lamb had been eaten the previous eve, this MUST be referring to the special unleavened meals eaten at the convocation, and during the resta the week.

Passover IS a week-long observance. (Ezekiel 45:21)

Quirinius remained in the area with an army, prolly into 6 BC, to make sure the Homos abided by the agreement he'd negotiated with them. No matter what his title was, he was de-facto governor.

Augustus was no idiot. He knew that forcing everyone to participate in a census, having everyone return to his hometown all at once, would disrupt the workings of the empire. Thus, the census took several years.

The magi first saw the "star" two years previous to their arrival at herod's palace.

I offer that Jesus was crucified Tuesday A.M. Why? because he was to remain in the tomb 3 nights, 3 days. He was entombed before sunset Tuesday, being in the ground Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday nights, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday days, arising Friday eve about sunset. Now, some say that the guards wouldn'ta been dozing that early, but they were prolly preparing to change shifts at dark, and some 12 hours of doing nothing wouldn'ta been conducive to alertness.

The women came to the tomb early Sunday AM, finding the rock rolled aside and Jesus missing. He did NOT rise immediately before the women arrived. Nor was Sunday known as the "Lord's Day" at that time.

I believe His birth was about 7-6 BC as Herod died 4 BC & the magi took 2 years to reach him...although the star coulda appeared at the Annunciation to Mary.