Jesus as Lord

I think there has been a whole lot of people who think that "lordship salvation" is some type of works based salvific system. I think they created this term because they don't like to preach that repentance is necissary for salvation.

Ro 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
(NKJV)

 

I by no means am a defender of Billy Graham - is one one extreme(I am not not even sure if he is saved if he does not believe Christ is the only way - but thats another discussion - no rabbit trails please)

However, John MacArthur is on the other extreme.

Here are few quotes from his on Lordship Salvation:

I used to believe as MacArthur believes. Until one day I look very closely at what he was saying, and what I believed and then compared with the Scriptures and with what Catholics teach.

If you notice he keeps speaking of works in regard to salvation, but he always has the disclaimer about works not being through human effort alone. It is something God does in us.

Catholics don't believe we do works by human effort alone, but that God imparts grace to us to enable us to do these works that we are required to do.

MacArthur adds in disclaimers like works are not meritorious(so as to attempt to distance him from Catholics, because he has been accused of coming dangerously close to Catholic sounding doctrines).

He is also fond of the "pattern of righteousness" statement. If one is truly saved, then one's life from the point of salvation forward will display a pattern of righteousness, or there will be momments of failure(another disclaimer from MacArthur) but the pattern of life will be one of righteousness if one is truly saved.

Now ask yourselves as I did many years ago, what is a pattern?

A pattern is when there is consistancy to something.

In the case of the Christian walk, a pattern means that we are consistantly living a righteous life - that our good works out weigh our failures(or bad works).

So according to MacArthur, the only way anyone can have any real assurance of their salvation is by looking at their belief on Christ AND seeing if their good works outweigh their bad works. Sound familar?(Catholic)

Now are there many Christians whose good works outweigh their bad works -of course! But this not the case for all Christians.

The is the crux of the whole Lordship debate.

It is not a debate about fruit as Lordship advocates like to steer it in. Those of us conservative Christians who have a problem with MacArthur's teachings believe that any true believe WILL bear fruit.

The question is how much and how visible that fruit will be.

MacArthur's crux is that it is impossible for a true Christian to have more than momments of failure(whatever 'momments' are) - in his view it is impossible for a true Christian's life to be a pattern of sin and failure as opposed to a pattern of righteousness and victory.

It is also a disagreement about why we obey God as Christians and what the penalty for disobedience is as Christians.

I and many other Christians believe that the penalty for disobedience as a Christian is loss of rewards and blessing from God. It can also mean discipline from God.

But others like MacArthur believe disobedience(especially a pattern of disobedience) on the part of a proffessed believer, is nothing more than proof that person was never saved - in his view their is no chance that person is saved.

Also MacArthur's "exchange" philosphy is found no where in the Scriptures. Salvation is not a commodities exchange, ourselves for Christ's salvation.

Salvation is a one way transacation, Christ gives his salvation to us freely. The scripture are clear that a gift is not a gift is something is expected in return for that gift.

Our salvation, and assurance of that salvation rest soley in the finished work of Christ on the Cross and out belief on Christ and acceptance of what he has done for us.

Our assurance is not based on our imperfect attempt to keep the law of Christ while in these wretched bodies.

Just some thoughts.

IFBReformer

 

Well put.

 

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth [present, active, participle].

Unless you think that the Holy Spirit made a mistake, justification is a process. This is durative in action.

Let's continue:

Are we chargeable:

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Is this a one time thing? No, it's a process. It's durative, and it's subjunctive: it may or may not happen. We might not confess and we might be held accountable.

Galatians 2:16-17 " Knowing that a man is not justified [present, passive, indicative; it's durative, it's a process] by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed [aorist, active, indicative; an event, common salvation is an event] in Jesus Christ, that we might (after salvation) be justified [aorist, active, subjunctive; not chargeable] by the faith (pleasing lifestyle that does not fail) of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek [present, active, participle; durative] to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Salvation is an event; justification is a process. That's what the Bible says in plain language.

 

Hope, Rm 8:33 might be convient if you rest it from its context as you did. If you read the whole passage its says:

29For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 ¶ What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

In verse 30 justified is in an aorist tense- there is not associated with time per se but rather the emphasis being on the punctilliar action.

Paul in verse 33 is simply saying that no one can charge the elect with any sin, since it is God who justifies them. This is viewing justificaiton as a descriptive; i.e. the one who is justified, not the acutal act of justification.

I would write more but I need to run.

 

Yes! This is talking about the elect, not all those who are saved!

 

If I am already regenerated then just what exactly am I repenting from or calling out in faith for?

I have no need to repent for I have been regenerated.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

I have no need to call out in faith for I am already His.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The true nexus of salvation is implicitly, explicitly, and directly stated to be the point at which I believe.

I was neither righteous, understanding, seeking, doing any good, willing, alive, nor had any hope UNTIL God drew me.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

It may not even be a decision that I make but it is most definitely a point at which before that point I do not believe and then at that point I do believe.

 

"Believe" is for common salvation.

Repentence, faith, making him Lord, etc., all come after salvation and are for justification and rewards.

Salvation is an event; justification is a process. </font>[/QUOTE]This is what I call "Cheap Grace" and it's a FALSE gospel. Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to be saved "Ye must be born again." Born again means totally changed. Easy-believerism is not sufficient.

 

Jesus actually told Nicodemus that he must be born from above, and that is achieved by believing upon the Lord Jesus. It's not based upon any works that Nicodemus could do.

Don't confuse being born again with being born from above.

 

Hope of Glory.....

what do you mean about being born again vs being born from above?

If this is too far off topic of this thread, please feel free to PM me.....

 

It may or may not be too far off topic, so just in case, I've PM'd you.

 

Being born from above and being born again are both passive. But, Acts 16:31 states quite clearly, when answering the question of, "What must I do to be saved?"

"Believe (aorist, active, imperative; action on the part of the individual) on the Lord Jesus ("Christ" is not in the original) and you shall be saved (future, passive, indicative; passive action that will happen as a result of the action of the individual)."

It's God who saves, based upon whether you believe or not.

In John 3:3, Jesus tells Nicodemus that unless a man is born from above, he cannot see the Kingdom. This is talking about salvation. The passive action of being born from above is the action that results from the action of the one who believes.

Any human being may believe for salvation. Any human being may be born from above.

Being born again, as found in 1 Peter 1:3 is based entirely upon the will of God. This is the elect. Those who are called out from among the called (saved).

 

I don't understand where you get this interpretation. Here is the KJV of the story.

Jhn 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Jhn 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

 

John 3:3 has to do with seeing the Kingdom; salvation.

John 3:5 has to do with entering the Kingdom; rewards and inheritance.

If you're saved, you will see the Kingdom. But to enter in (to participate), requires obedience.

The Greek that is translated in 3:3 as "born again" is the same word that is translated in 3:31 as "from above".

When you're born from above, you will get to see the Kingdom.

 

To see the kingdom and to enter into the kingdom mean the same thing. SALVATION requires obedence. There is n such thing as a carnal christian. There are obedient christians and there are the lost, damned to Hell.

There is nothing said here about rewards. Personally, I think the whole question about rewards is way overblown and is used to try to missinterpret the very description of the (one) judgement found in MA 25 and Rev 20.