Is Legalism a "Higher" Standard?

You are right. If an event causes someone to lust or indulge in sinful thoughts or actions, then what happened at the event can violate God's standard of purity. That is one step removed from what we are talking about.

There may be a misunderstanding here that I am saying movies with sexual nudity are not wrong. That is not what I am talking about. What I am saying is that God's standard is purity. How one protects him/herself from violating that standard differs.

God's standard of purity is not "do not attend movies with sexual nudity" (although it may involve this). His standard is abstain from sexual impurity; therefore, choices have to be made to uphold the divine standard. That is why I asked Larry if sitting through the movie with your eyes closed is a violation of God's standard. The obvious answer is no because you have not committed the sin of lust. God's standard is not whether you attend a certain movie or not. His standard is do not lust. If attending and watching a movie with sexual nudity causes one to violate that standard (which includes every man I know), do not do it (or at least arrange a way to avoid the nudity -- having your wife with you is a good one). This is still a man-made standard (I will not attend and watch movies with sexual nudity) to avoid violating the God-ordained standard (abstain from sexual impropriety). Distinct but important difference.

Actually I do the opposite. If you recall our previous conversations, I have never questioned whether you can be "right with God" and believe what you do.

Actually it is not based solely on the church you attend but also our prior conversations. Just one example, you have said that you do not believe a person can be right with God and listen to "worldly" music. Prime example of what we are discussing. As far as your church, I stick by my stance that KJVO is a legalistic position in and of itself.

What is taught and practiced is that those who hold certain standards are "holier" than those who do not. And once again, this does not have to be spoken verbally. It is a mindset that is promoted regardless of how many times it is said out loud. I am only speaking from my experience within fundamentalist circles, which I personally believe is more extensive than the average person's.

 

Just so you know, AAG, the music issue is to me one which affects our walk with God on such a profound basis that I see it as a far greater influence on our spiritual walk than many other issues.

Even the sin of lusting, indulging in one movie with nudity in it will affect you right then and yes, violates God's clear standard of purity. But I would not see that as having the same affect on one's walk with God as a steady diet of the wrong kind of music.

I do see what you are saying about the distinction between God's standard and how we uphold that standard within our own lives. But Im still not sure that the difference is one which makes a difference.

Our attitudes towards each other ought to be one of understanding and love....speaking of all Christians attitudes towards the brethren. Its been stated before, and I agree, that there are groups who see their own outward standards as the "only basis for faith and practice." And this attitude can cause bad behavior. Its that bad behavior and the sinful pride which is wrong.

Far too often the standard is seen by others as being the same as the pride though, and that is what is not fair or just.

btw, thank you for the compliment on my support of my church. Im glad I was able to give you that impression.

 

you hit the nail right on the head

 

Do you really need this answered??? You talked about me running to the extreme (which I didn't do) and the post about someone sitting through the movie with their eyes closed. That is just plain stupid to do that. That person needs to have their head examined.

But even the audio may contain sexual innuendo (most movies do, in fact) and lustful stimulants. So sitting with their eyes closed probably won't help.

Actually you just did it. You said attending or not attending a particular event determines whether someone violates God's standard of purity. </font>[/QUOTE]I just did what? I didn't raise an unnecessary standard to be someone else's measure of spiritual maturity. In fact, I raised no standard at all. I simply pointed one out.

 

I noticed you did not answer the question.

Yes it is extreme, but it makes the point. You said not attending a movie with sexual nudity in it is a God-ordained standard. If that is the case, the attendance is wrong regardless of what one sees or hears. Again it confirms my earlier posts about what is God-ordained and what is a man-made standard to prohibit violation of God's standard of purity.

 

This is fine as long as you understand this is your personal standard/preference and not God's.

 

Well, God's standard is a "solemn sound", so if my "preference/standard" match that, I know I'm in line with "godly" standards.

A man can be exposed to whom and what he worships by the music he listens to. If the music makes the flesh happy, it is at enmity with God. If it is in line with being a "solemn sound" then it pleases God if, and only if, it glorifies Him also as in conjunction with that slomen sound.

Read your Bible.

 

Then we got a problem, because a lot of classic old hymns don't glorify God "only". For example, Beethoven's "Joyful Joyful" makes the flesh happy and is a solemn sound, but since it makes the flech happy, then it must be discarded.

 

You obviously are oriented only to the desires of your flesh to make so preposturous a statement.

 

Where do you get this "solemn sound" standard from?

Psalm 150
1 Praise the LORD.
Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens.

2 Praise him for his acts of power;
praise him for his surpassing greatness.

3 Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,

4 praise him with tambourine and dancing,
praise him with the strings and flute,

5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.

6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD. Praise the LORD

Does not sound like a "solemn sound" to me.

So how is that working for you?

 

The best rebut you can come up with is more of your pharisaical rantings?

 

Why should I? Evidently you determine the standard.

 

The pastor of my church went on a mission trip to the former Soviet Union, and he was a guest speaker in several churches. In one of the churches he spoke at, it was the custom that everyone who preaches the Gospel much preach literally on their knees the entire time.

No sitting, no standing up. Preaching while standing was a sign of pride in their culture, so they expect everyone to follow their customs.

So my pastor did preach on his knees, but he told us that it was very painful and it made concentrating on the sermon quite hard. Now that you've raised the topic, it seems to me that this custom which he endured probably falls into your category of the "higher standard" which might not be tolerated in most churches in the United States.

How does the higher standards discussion relate to the issue of cross-cultural evangelism?
I think if it had been me, I would have preached from my knees also, but truth is, it's hard not to think that some of the traditions of man might be creeping into our quest for holiness.
--
Eric Pement

 

when speaking of cross-cultural evangelism, one should conform to the culture of the country they are in as long as it does not violate Biblical mandates or Biblical principles. I for one could go to another country and conform to that country's way of thinking without violating my own conscience as to what I believe God's principles would have me do.

This example is one that I thought of a few days ago.....when in Japan I imagine the conservative Christian ladies would purposely try not to dress like a geisha. There is a certain "look" which they have, distinctive to the geishas, which lets those around them know who and what they are....yet if I dressed like that here in my own country no one would think twice about it, nor would I personally feel as if I was being immodest.

Yes, some of the "traditions of men" creep into our philosophies. But they HAVE to, because we live in a world filled with the philosophies of men. If using a certain phraseology in a specific country is considered rude in that country, than as a Christian we ought to abstain from it....even if to us it is NOT rude.

There are some countries where you'd better not use the "OK" sign, or you will highly offend the natives there. Amongst Asians one does not beckon to another human using a crooked finger....its considered highly demeaning. Upholding these things while in those other countries would then yes, I think be holding to a higher standard which is not legalistic, just respectful of the culture around you.

 

First of all, you have to make sure all of your standards are indeed Bible based, or the nationals (in Asia for sure) will simply think you are touting your American culture and, oftentimes, ignore it. Of course there are other cultures where the folk will follow anyting you say--in that case you still have to make sure your standards are based solidly on the Bible or you may end up building an American church, not a national one.

Secondly, you have to work very hard to understand the culture where you are. There are elements to the culture that decent people, even lost people (Buddhists, Shintoists, etc.), immediatly know are improper for a Christian or any upstanding citizen. Bapmom's geisha illustration is an apt one, though the geisha culture is almost gone (none in my town of 360,000. ) The illustration I would use instead is pachinko, Japanese pinball. It has somewhat of a shady reputation in Japan, though it is very popular. (For example, many pachinko parlors are run by North Koreans, who then send their profits back to the totalitarian homeland.) Another illustration is tickling, believe it or not! I'm still not sure why, but tickling seems to have a sexual connotation in Japanese culture, so I never tickle!!

Thirdly, it is vital to understand the language aspect of the culture. There are "bad words" in any culture which should be avoided by the missionary trying to reach the people if he wants to keep his good reputation. Once our little boy (now 26) came home from the park using a certain word. I couldn't find it in my dictionary, so that evening at prayer meeting we asked our only believer there that evening, a lovely young Christian single lady, what it meant. She got a shocked look on her face and said, "I don't know!" Later we found out it was a word for excrement.

All of this takes grace, dignity and as much knowledge of the Bible and the culture you are ministering in as possible!

 

I think you offer some solid advice John about understanding one's culture when doing ministry. I believe equally as strong about our western culture. We have to understand it, know its language, and be able to articulate biblical truth in a cultural context. Missions is not something done only overseas. We are all called to be missionaries in the culture in which we live and serve.

 

Agreed, All about Grace. Anymore, much of the American culture is foreign to an American sold-out-to-the-Lord Christian.

 

Thanks, John and "bapmom" for your input here. I think one of the difficulties here stems from the fact that there are cultures, plus subcultures, plus individual church customs ("cultures") which can vary so widely.

I recall that this thread began with an account of a Nazarene church in the U.S. which frowned on short sleeves or wedding rings. Yet the same city no doubt has Christian churches with very different tolerances. My point is that on the foreign field, there are probably similar divergences in customs among churches also, so that it seems the customs of the nation, of the city or town, and of the particular church all come under the term "culture".

Not much deep insight there--just that it makes discussing culture all the trickier.

 

Is legalism a higher standard? No, it's a LOWER one when one tries to enforce "rules" not found in Scripture, or those "rules" specific to the culture of the time/place in which a given Scripture was written. An example of the latter is a certain kind of tassles worn on a robe or a certain way of mens' trimming their beards or sideburns.

 

Well, personally, I believe that if God had meant us men to have beards and mustaches, He would have given us hair on our face!