-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Did Rick Warren really say this?
- Thread starter Joseph_Botwinick
- Start date
eloidalmanutha
New Member
Where's your proof? I don't know enough about him to make a claim such as this. </font>[/QUOTE]Here are some of RW's associates - I stopped after these four, I could not stomach reading any more . . .
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/rick_warren_new_age.html#Peter%20Drucker
[#1]
The Power of Purpose, Sponsored by the John Templeton Foundation, is a world-wide essay competition with the theme "The Power of Purpose" with total grand prizes of $500,000 and the grand prize of $100,000. There is no entry fee. Essays should be no more than 3,500 words in English, entrants are to be 18 years of age or older. “The award-winning essays in this competition will be selected by this distinguished panel of judges, all of whom have exemplified throughout their lives and careers a strong and unmistakable understanding of The Power of Purpose.
The Templeton web site says
“In day-to-day life, we encounter men and women who seem driven by something outside of themselves, whose commitment to their profession or volunteer activities, their community, or their cause seems to rise above the necessary, above the possible, above even the human. Indeed, we say that in such people we see “the divine spark.”
Many religious traditions, both Eastern and Western, subscribe to the idea that there is something of God’s presence in each of us. Even for the growing number of people who describe themselves as spiritual, but not necessarily religious, there is a certain attachment to this concept of the divine spark. It is the sense that our lives can be guided from within by something more important than our simple survival, something not merely intellectual either, something in our souls.” http://www.templeton.org/powerofpurpose/about.html
Rick Warren is one of five judges to determine the winner in the Power of Purpose Essays. Along with Hugh Delehanty Editor in Chief, AARP Publications (A practicing Buddhist), Marian Wright Edelman Founder and President- Children's Defense Fund (Co-authored a book with Alison Wright who wrote The Spirit of Tibet: Portrait of a Culture in Exile and the photographer for A Simple Monk: Writings on His Holiness the Dalai Lama) and Paul Davies (Professor of Natural Philosophy also lectures to religious organizations around the world. He has had meetings with the Pope and the Dalai Lama andfrequently debates science and religion with theologians). http://www.templeton.org/powerofpurpose/judges.html.
Which brings us to question one.... While people have the right to believe whatever they want, What is a ‘Christian’ leader doing on this panel. He does not seem at all uncomfortable with the New Age beliefs that has not only been promoted by Templeton in the past, but are being promoted on the same website.
“It was Norman Vincent Peale who called Templeton “The greatest layman of the Christian church in our time” (found on Jacket of Discovering the laws of Life, 1994). This he attributed to a man who is an evolutionist, universalist, pantheist, a non-Christian and even against Christian doctrine. How is this possible?
Templeton and his New Age views were first introduced to the church by none other than Robert Schuller in 1986. Schuller put Templeton's picture on his Possibilities Magazine front cover. In it he wrote, “The Christ spirit dwells in every human being whether the person knows it or not nothing exists except God” (Possibilities, pp. 8-12, Summer 1986).
So now we see Rick Warren who learned from Robert Schuller who introduced Templeton. My how the circle is unbroken”
====================
[#2]
On May 23, 2005 Rick Warren was a guest speaker at the The Pew and Religion Forum, where he said
"Peter Drucker ... he's my mentor. I've spent 20 years under his tutelage learning about leadership from him." RW
And
“I read everything Peter Drucker writes. His book “The Effective Executive" is a favourite I re-read every year. Long before words like “empowerment” became popular, Peter was telling us that the secret of achieving results is to focus on your strengths, and the strengths of those you work with, rather than focusing on weaknesses. In fact, Peter says, making strengths productive is the unique purpose of organisation.
“… find out what others do well and help them to be able to do more of it. This is the key to effective businesses, effective churches, and every other effective organisation. Great organisations position people for success rather than trying to eliminate all their weaknesses. It's far easier to manage weaknesses than to eliminate all of them.” (BUILDING ON YOUR STRENGTHS - By Rick Warren)
The Drucker-Warren relationship may surprise many readers, but it goes back two decades, to when the young minister came to Drucker for advice. Under Drucker's tutelage, Warren's own success as a spiritual entrepreneur has been considerable. Saddleback has grown to 15,000 members and has helped start another 60 churches throughout the world. Warren's 2001 book, The Purpose-Driven Life, is this decade's best seller with 19.5 million copies sold so far and compiling at the rate of 500,000 per month.” (http://www.forbes.com/home/management/2004/11/19/cz_rk_1119drucker.html)
“ Peter Drucker's parents were part of the Vienna Circle . The members met regularly to discuss philosophy, religion and society. This was a radical group of elite, affluent European intellectuals, who developed a new model of man and society. Many of their ideas were rooted in German mysticism. Young Peter Drucker grew up with an aptitude for philosophical analysis and he incorporated innovative social theories into his Systems Management ideas so popular today. His social theory is found in an article posted on his official website. The article is “The Age of Social Transformation”. (www.christianquill.com/)
Did we miss something here? Why does a Baptist Preacher spend 20 years under the tutelage of a business man.. What happened to years of staying at Jesus’ feet? Wouldn’t that be all the knowledge and wisdom a pastor would need?
Not in today’s Market Driven Church which focuses is on what the consumer (Unchurched Harry) wants and thinks he needs, rather than on what God wants and what He says Harry needs. In other words, market-driven churches are built upon the foundation of polls, surveys, and the latest marketing techniques, instead of upon the Word of God.
====================
[#3]
While Rick Warren is gearing up to train a billion people, unbeknownst to many he has also teamed up with New Age and contemplative promoter, Ken Blanchard. In November 2003 Rick Warren gave a sermon (I watched the video clip on his site) outlining his upcoming Global PEACE Plan and said
"Ken [Blanchard] has signed on to help with the Peace Plan, and he's going to be helping train us in leadership and in how to train others to be leaders all around the world. In fact, he was here this week and I've asked him to just give a little video greeting"
Incidentally the sermon in which Rick Warren introduced KB to Saddleback has been since taken off his site.)
So What is all the fuss over Ken Blanchard about?
There is countless evidence to show that Blanchard sits on the New Age/mystical/contemplative bandwagon. While this in no way proves that Rick Warren supports or endorses either New Age beliefs or any form of Eastern Religion or Philosophy, the question still has to be asked... What is a so called Christian leader doing in any kind of alliance with a man who so obviously promotes and believes in the benefits and use of mantra meditation, yoga and who has no trouble borrowing from Buddhism.
Additionally Ken Blanchard is about business all the way.
The Brisbane Graduate School of Business carried the following information in their 2004 Newsletter. (The same information is carried on the University of Ulster site) The conference, to be held on November 12 in the University of Ulster’s Jordanstown campus was carried to the Convention center in Brisbane via simulcast (a contraction of "simultaneous broadcast").
I believe this conference was carried via satellite to 95 cities around the world and another one is scheduled for December 2005, (this one will include Bill Clinton and Madeleine Albright)
Blanchard Wrote the Foreword to Franz Metcalf's What Would Buddha Do in the Workplace? ©2001.
"I look for inspirational messages from a variety of sources besides Jesus. Our folks get to hear words of wisdom from great prophets and spiritual leaders like Buddha, Mohammed ... Yogananda and the Dalai Lama”. —Ken Blanchard, foreword
"Buddha points to the path and invites us to begin our journey to enlightenment. I ... invite you to begin your journey to enlightened work." —Ken Blanchard, foreword
"As a follower of Jesus I believe He is the truth and the way. So I look for my inspiration from Him as documented in the Bible. And yet, in our company we have people of all faiths as well as people who center their faith in the goodness of human beings. As a result, many of our people would delete my morning messages if they thought I was only coming from a Christian perspective. So I look for inspirational messages from a variety of sources besides Jesus. Our folk get to hear words of wisdom form great prophets and spiritual leaders like Buddha, Mohammed, Moses, Mahatma Gandhi, Yogananda, and the Dalai Lama....
"Throughout this book, 'Buddha's insights and words help us create a kinder and gentler workplace. Jesus would approve. ...
"Buddha points to the path and invites us to begin our journey to enlightenment.... K.B."
Ken Blanchard is on the Board of Advisors of an organization called the Hoffman Institute (home of the Hoffman Quadrinity Process). For those of you who may wonder what exactly the Hoffman Quadrinity Process is, we turn our attention now to a 2003 book named, The Hoffman Process written by Tim Laurence, the present director of The Hoffman Institute. I don't even think words can fully describe the disturbing anti-biblical message in this book. But to see Ken Blanchard's name on the inside endorsement page nestled in between Sonia Choquette (a third generation psychic), Margot Anand (a tantric/mystic sex teacher), and staunch New Ager, Joan Borysenko, is an utter disgrace.
In both the book and the Hoffman Institute web site, Ken Blanchard states, after having taken the course himself, that: "The Hoffman Process brings forth spiritual leadership in a person. It made my spirituality come alive." (emphasis added)
Let's look at a few quotes in Tim Laurence's book to gain a perspective on the spirituality of the Hoffman Process.
· "'I asked my friends up above. They always have the right answer," he replied, referring to his spirit guides that, as a psychic healer, he often consulted."-Tim Laurence, speaking about the Hoffman Process founder, Bob Hoffman, p.15.
· "Many traditions around the world focus on the breath as a link to the divine. -- Indeed, it is used as the focus of the Buddhist practice called Vipassana, or 'insight meditation.'" (Also see pages 89 and 299 of Rick Warren's book, The Purpose Driven Life for his explanation of breath prayers.)
· "You can use a short meditation to remind yourself of this connection to all others in this world of ours. - As you breathe, feel that breath coming from your core essence." p. 207.
· "When you are open to life, you start noticing the divine in everything." p. 209.
Additionally
Ken Blanchard has either written the foreword or placed his endorsement on the front or back cover to Mind Like Water by Jim Ballard, What Would Buddha Do At Work by Frank Metcalf, The Corporate Mystic by Gay Hendricks, The 7 Spiritual Laws of Success by New Age leader Deepak Chopra, and Death and Letting Go by clairvoyant Ellen Tadd.
Robert Scheinfeld is the author of a book called The 11th Element. Scheinfeld, a man who boasts of going through the AVATAR program, teaches in his books and seminars a concept that within every person is an invisible network and an inner intelligence or Inner CEO. Of this invisible network, Scheinfeld says, "That network links all of us together at the unconscious level and stores information on what everybody is doing all over the planet."
================
[#4]
There has apparently been some controversy regarding the connections between Rick Warren and Robert Schuller, with Rick Warren himself denying that he was mentored in any way by Schuller, so consider the following..
Rick Warren uses a recommendation by Schuller at the start of his book, “The Purpose Driven Church.”
In Christianity Today, Warren’s wife was quoted as saying, "When we came to that institute, we were blown away." How God has blessed him. And today Rick Warren is blessing millions of people. (http://www.hourofpower.org/booklets/bookletdetail.cfm?ArticleID=2570).
During his last year in seminary, [Rick Warren] and Kay drove west to visit Robert Schuller's Institute for Church Growth. "We had a very stony ride out to the conference," she says, because such nontraditional ministry scared her to death. Schuller, though, won them over. "He had a profound influence on Rick," Kay says. "We were captivated by his positive appeal to nonbelievers. I never looked back"… Imitating Schuller, Warren walked the (then unincorporated but fast-growing) town of Lake Forest, asking what kept people from going to church. (http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/012/1.42.html).
In Schuller’s words
We are the home of the world's first Church Growth Institute, -launching the mega-church movement in the 20th century. Tens of thousands of pastors, including famous graduates Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, Bishop Blake, Walt Kallestad, and Sundo Kim of Korea, were mentored here.
(http://www.hourofpower.org/Jubilee/who_are_we.cfm)
"I launched the megachurch movement through the Institute for Successful Church Leadership in 1970," he said, referring to his annual pastors conference at the Garden Grove church. "There were no megachurches 32 years ago--we were the closest thing to it."
(http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1058/is_8_119/ai_85106545).
What has been accomplished already through this church is phenomenal because of the dedicated members and friends we have. I see the results today of the Institute for Successful Church Leadership which we dared to launch 35 years ago and it is still going strong. Here ministers are inspired to believe in their dreams and to present the good news of the gospel in positive terms. And some of those students are well-known. Bill Hybels now pastors the largest church, I think, in the United States, the Willow Creek Community Church. Bill has often said that there probably would not be a Willow Creek Church if he hadn’t been able to come to our pastor’s institute here. I’m so proud of him. (article numbered 1783).
Robert Schuller is probably one of today’s most apostate leaders. Consider the following from Bible Discernment Ministries..
“Schuller's false teaching is an extremely serious matter in light of his wide influence. His is the most popular religion television broadcast in America. His books sell by the millions. He appears with presidents. His "self-esteem Christianity" has been adopted by multitudes. These believe they are Christians and attend churches; but in reality, they worship a false christ and follow a false gospel. Robert Schuller and his mentor, the late Norman Vincent Peale, are two of the key culprits in promoting this error.
Schuller reinterprets the doctrines of the Word of God to conform with his self-esteem philosophy. His Christ is a Jesus who provides men with self-esteem. Schuller's gospel is the replacement of negative self concepts with positive ones. To Schuller, sin is merely the lack of self-esteem. To Schuller, the greatest evil is to call men sinners in a Biblical fashion and thereby injure their self-esteem. Schuller is a universalist who believes that all people are the children of God. His goal is to help each person understand and enjoy this "fact." Bottom line, Schuller's message is that there is no need for one to recognize his own personal sin, no need for repentance, and no need for the crucifixion of self. In fact, concerning the latter point, Schuller teaches just the opposite philosophy -- that self is to be exalted -- which is nothing less than an outright denial of the Gospel of Jesus Christ: (See articles on Self Esteem, sin and repentance on this site)
(a) Personal Sin?: "What do I mean by sin? Answer: Any human condition or act that robs God of glory by stripping one of his children of their right to divine dignity. I could offer another complementing answer: Sin is that deep lack of trust that separates me from God and leaves me with a sense of shame and unworthiness. I can offer still another answer: Sin is any act or thought that robs myself or another human being of his or her self-esteem" (Self-Esteem: The New Reformation, p. 14). In a 10/5/84 letter to Christianity Today, Schuller wrote, "I don't think anything has been done in the name of Christ and under the banner of Christianity that has proven more destructive to human personality and hence counterproductive to the evangelism enterprise than the often crude, uncouth, and unchristian strategy of attempting to make people aware of their lost and sinful condition" (cf. Romans 1:18-3:20).
Denial of Self?: One of Schuller's books, Self-Love: The Dynamic Force of Success, took Eric Fromm's humanistic self-love teachings and brought them into the church. In Self-Esteem: The New Reformation (Word Books, 1982), Schuller teaches that: (1) the church's problem is that it has had a God-centered theology for centuries, when it needs a man-centered one; (2) we're not bad, merely badly informed about how good we are; (3) it would be an insult to the integrity of any human being to call him a sinner; and (4) "Jesus knew His worth; His success fed His self-esteem. He suffered the cross to sanctify His self-esteem and He bore the cross to sanctify your self-esteem. The cross will sanctify the ego trip" (p. 115) (cf. Matt. 16:24). (See attached reports for more analysis and quotes from Self-Esteem: The New Reformation) [Schuller further amplified this latter thought on the 8/12/80 Phil Donahue Show; Schuller said, "Jesus had an ego. He said, 'I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me.' Wow, what an ego trip He was on!"]
Schuller is also an ecumenist
"I met once more with the Grand Mufti (a Muslim), truly one of the great Christ-honoring leaders of faith. ... I'm dreaming a bold impossilbe dream: that positive-thinking believers in God will rise above the illusions that our sectarian religions have imposed on the world, and that leaders of the major faiths will rise above dotrinal idiosyncrasies, choosing not to focus on disagreements, but rather to transcend divisive dogmas to work together to bring peace and prosperity and hope to the world...." (Robert Schuller. My Journey p. 502)
"Standing before a crowd of devout Muslims with the Grand Mufti, I know that we're all doing God's work together. Standing on the edge of a new millennium, we're laboring hand in hand to repair the breach." (Robert Schuller. My Journey p. 501) See Should Christians Join In Interfaith Communion?
eloidalmanutha
New Member
sorry - double post 
guitarpreacher
New Member
YAWN
eloidalmanutha
New Member
Yes, I totally agree. Much of the church today is very lethargic and no longer understands the concept of "contending for the faith", nor do they have a love of the truth. It is very sad, but exactly how Jesus and the apostles said it would be.
Thank you for your commentary, I appreciate the support
eloidalmanutha
New Member
anytime, Linda. it's always good to see some discerning people that step out from the crowd for the truth
eloidalmanutha
New Member
no problem - typos are the spice of internet life
And I associate with eloida .. on the BaptistBoard so that makes ME a __________ .
I love Spurgeon that means I must be a cigar smoker.
I love Calvin that means I must be in favor of a church-run State.
I love Sproul that means I must be a closet presbyterian.
I love . .
Listing who a person loves/reads/learns from and then condemning that person because of ALL the conduct or words of that other is about the most illogical tripe I've seen. And from some on the BB . . .
I love Spurgeon that means I must be a cigar smoker.
I love Calvin that means I must be in favor of a church-run State.
I love Sproul that means I must be a closet presbyterian.
I love . .
Listing who a person loves/reads/learns from and then condemning that person because of ALL the conduct or words of that other is about the most illogical tripe I've seen. And from some on the BB . . .
Your profile read My home church: "Hometown Christian Church." The only Christian Churches I know do not believe in eternal security and they are closely related to Disciples of Christ.Originally posted by eloidalmanutha:
I had to go back to my profile, cause I did a double take. My profile says nothing about being a disciples of Christ adherent. I am a Christian Baptist or a Baptist who is a Christian. I believe that Jesus is God, is God made manifest in the flesh. Just because I go to a Christian Church does not make me a member of the denomination of the Disciples of Christ
I believe what eloidalmanutha is trying to say is this: We as believers are to "mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them." (Rom.16:17). This doesn't mean we are never to "associate" with unbelievers in our daily lives. Otherwise, how can we witness to the lost? However, we are not to have "fellowship" with those who teach falsely. We are not to sit under false teaching. Believers in Christ are a "separated"/sanctified people and we are not to be "unequally" yoked with unbelievers. (2 Cor.6:14)
Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. (1 Corinthians 15:33)
Abstain from all appearance of evil. (1 Thessalonians 5:22)
How many of what you quoted did you actually verify from first hand sources? If I were you I would hate to think that I was manipulated into thinking something that was not true.
Some years ago I went to a conference led by Rick Warren and heard him say things from his own mouth in which I thought he believed something entirely different because I read some articles he wrote and saw them from my preconceived viewpoint. My views of him did not match what he actually believed at all.
In most cases if I ask the critic if they actually contacted the person, the answer is some effort to skirt the issue and when pressed the word which comes out of their mouth is "No."
Recently I Emailed a person who was criticizing someone for what the author of a book wrote. I never got a response from that person verifying if he actually read the book. A lot of people are great exaggerators and do not spend the necessary time to verify is something is true of not. I would sure hate to be caught quoting a liar.
My Bible reads in 1 Timothy 5:19, "Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses."
Who are your two or three credible witnesses against RW?
Sometime read http://www.bibleteacher.org/Dm118_8.htm
guitarpreacher
New Member
Yes, I totally agree. Much of the church today is very lethargic and no longer understands the concept of "contending for the faith", nor do they have a love of the truth. It is very sad, but exactly how Jesus and the apostles said it would be.
Thank you for your commentary, I appreciate the support
eloidalmanutha
New Member
Your profile read My home church: "Hometown Christian Church." The only Christian Churches I know do not believe in eternal security and they are closely related to Disciples of Christ. </font>[/QUOTE]Well, there are 1000's of churches with names that cannot be coined with a specific denominational tie, so you might consider re-evaluating how you judge someone's affiliation to a denomination.Originally posted by gb93433:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by eloidalmanutha:
I had to go back to my profile, cause I did a double take. My profile says nothing about being a disciples of Christ adherent. I am a Christian Baptist or a Baptist who is a Christian. I believe that Jesus is God, is God made manifest in the flesh. Just because I go to a Christian Church does not make me a member of the denomination of the Disciples of Christ
eloidalmanutha
New Member
Yes, I totally agree. Much of the church today is very lethargic and no longer understands the concept of "contending for the faith", nor do they have a love of the truth. It is very sad, but exactly how Jesus and the apostles said it would be.
Thank you for your commentary, I appreciate the support
eloidalmanutha
New Member
How many of what you quoted did you actually verify from first hand sources? If I were you I would hate to think that I was manipulated into thinking something that was not true.
Some years ago I went to a conference led by Rick Warren and heard him say things from his own mouth in which I thought he believed something entirely different because I read some articles he wrote and saw them from my preconceived viewpoint. My views of him did not match what he actually believed at all.
In most cases if I ask the critic if they actually contacted the person, the answer is some effort to skirt the issue and when pressed the word which comes out of their mouth is "No."
Recently I Emailed a person who was criticizing someone for what the author of a book wrote. I never got a response from that person verifying if he actually read the book. A lot of people are great exaggerators and do not spend the necessary time to verify is something is true of not. I would sure hate to be caught quoting a liar.
My Bible reads in 1 Timothy 5:19, "Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses."
Who are your two or three credible witnesses against RW? </font>[/QUOTE]the information posted was documented and researched properly - those are my witnesses. I don't believe that the links and information posted are being read or perceived. but that is not the fault of the messenger.
eloidalmanutha
New Member
2 Cor 6:14 Be all of you not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship has righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what concord has Christ with Belial? or what part has he that believes with an infidel? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? for all of you are the temple of the living God; as God has said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be all of you separate, says the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 18 And will be a Father unto you, and all of you shall be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
And I associate with eloida .. on the BaptistBoard so that makes ME a __________ .
I love Spurgeon that means I must be a cigar smoker.
I love Calvin that means I must be in favor of a church-run State.
I love Sproul that means I must be a closet presbyterian.
I love . .
Listing who a person loves/reads/learns from and then condemning that person because of ALL the conduct or words of that other is about the most illogical tripe I've seen. And from some on the BB . . .
Sitting down with known adulterers of God's Word - aka buddhists, new agers, and deniers of Christ with every intent to partake of the same food, is fornication against God.
eloidalmanutha
New Member
Sometime read http://www.bibleteacher.org/Dm118_8.htm </font>[/QUOTE]my statement stands as written.
2 Tim 3:13 But evil men and pretenders will go forward to worse, leading astray and being led astray.
2 Tim 4:3 For a time will be when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own lusts, they will heap up to themselves teachers tickling the ear;
4 and they will turn away the ear from the truth and will be turned aside to myths.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
eloidalmanutha
New Member
[/qb][/QUOTE]
My Bible reads in 1 Timothy 5:19, "Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses."
Who are your two or three credible witnesses against RW? [/qb][/QUOTE]
the information posted was documented and researched properly - those are my witnesses. I don't believe that the links and information posted are being read or perceived. but that is not the fault of the messenger. [/QB][/QUOTE]
you forgot the next verse:
1 Tim 5:19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder unless on "the testimony of" "two or three witnesses." Deut. 19:15
20 The ones sinning before all, rebuke, that the rest also may have fear.
My Bible reads in 1 Timothy 5:19, "Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses."
Who are your two or three credible witnesses against RW? [/qb][/QUOTE]
the information posted was documented and researched properly - those are my witnesses. I don't believe that the links and information posted are being read or perceived. but that is not the fault of the messenger. [/QB][/QUOTE]
you forgot the next verse:
1 Tim 5:19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder unless on "the testimony of" "two or three witnesses." Deut. 19:15
20 The ones sinning before all, rebuke, that the rest also may have fear.
guitarpreacher
New Member
So after 6 pages of you ripping Rick Warren and his ministry, you are expecting warmth and compassion and love and mercy. Can you say hypocrit??