1 John 5:1 revisited.

[Dave...]

1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.

This passage is often quoted as proof that one must be born again to believe. I think this mistranslation was pointed out very eloquently by Dr. Sam Storms. I believe that he is one of the consensus who believes that the new birth precedes faith. I thank him for his honesty.


Dr. Storms wrote:

"John says in 5:1 that whoever is presently believing in Christ has in the past been born or begotten of God. I.e., a present action of believing is evidence of a past experience of begetting. Is John then saying that new birth or regeneration always precedes and causes saving faith in Christ? Although I believe regeneration (new birth) does precede and cause faith, I do not believe that is John’s point here.

When one examines these texts where the terminology of regeneration is used, one finds that John is concerned with describing the consequences or fruit of the new birth:

Question: “How may I know that regeneration has occurred? How may I know if someone has been born again?”

Answer: “That person will not practice sin (3:9; 5:18). That person will practice righteousness (2:29). That person will love the brethren (4:7). That person will believe in Christ (5:1). And that person will overcome the world (5:4).”

John’s point is simply that these activities are the evidence of the new birth and hence of salvation. Their absence is the evidence that regeneration has not taken place. He makes this point, not because he wants to demonstrate the cause/effect relationship between regeneration and faith, but because he wants to provide the church with tests by which to discern between true and spurious “believers.”" –Dr. Sam Storms (link is not working, sorry)


The same John in his Gospels wrote this as the purpose of his Gospel. John 20:31

"but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name."

And later, John wrote this as the purpose of his Epistle, 1 John 5:13

" These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."


This verse, 1 John 5:1, if we do not go beyond the text, is really not in conflict with those who believe that being born again is the result of faith. It IS going beyond the text to use it as a proof text to, as Dr. Sam Storms wrote, "demonstrate the cause/effect relationship between regeneration and faith"


It's really simple. If you believe, you have been born again. Why? because the initial result of believing is to be born again.

The quote above by DR. Sam Storms was taken from this link

1 John 5:1 Does Not Teach Pre-Faith Regeneration

In an earlier post <here> we presented many passages which clearly indicate the ordo salutis (the order of salvation), as expressed by the apostle John when he wrote, “I have written th…

soteriology101.com

 

[Brightfame52]

The passage does teach spiritual birth prior to believing in Christ in a conversion experience, believing in Him and love to other born again believers are evidences of having been born of God.

 

[Dave G]

It's really simple. If you believe, you have been born again.

Perhaps, but as the Bible tells us, there are "wheat" and there are "tares".

Just because a person initially believes, does not mean that they are one of His people.
Please see the parables of the sower and of the tares, and the Lord's explanation of them in Matthew 13, Mark 4 and Luke 8.

True believers take hope in Christ, and due to their love for Him, do not fall away under trials and tribulations.

 

[Dave G]

Why? because the initial result of believing is to be born again.

Dave, perhaps without you realizing the full impact of what you're saying...

I don't imagine that you know that this leads to, essentially, God relying upon a person's belief in order to save them;
I.E. the Lord regarding a man's efforts ( however "insignificant they may be" in our eyes ) with favor, and not regarding another person's efforts, ( however "great they may be" in our eyes ), in order to bestow them favor.

Scripture teaches that salvation and eternal life are gifts ( Romans 6:23 ), not rewards:

" For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Please think about not only what His word says in all areas on this subject, but what the end result of this teaching is...
That salvation and an eternal relationship with the Lord would be based on something that we do ( works ), not unmerited grace ( something that God alone does ).

As it stands, what you're describing ( and what you are stating that the Bible teaches ) is that the Lord set up a system whereby mankind can earn their way into His favor;
Instead of that favor being bestowed upon a person simply out of the good pleasure of His will and according to His mercy, uninfluenced by anything that we do or say.

This is not what Paul told the churches in the letters to them, sir.
Rather, he told them, by inspiration, that they were the recipients of the gifts of God, and that it was because the Lord chose them to salvation...
Through sanctification of the Spirit and their belief of the truth ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 )...
That it was given to them, in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Him, but to suffer for His sake ( Philippians 1:29 ).

Election ( His choice of the believer ) is what made it that way, not our choice of Him.

 

[Dave...]

Dave, perhaps without you realizing the full impact of what you're saying...

I don't imagine that you know that this leads to, essentially, God relying upon a person's belief in order to save them;
I.E. the Lord regarding a man's efforts ( however "insignificant they may be" in our eyes ) with favor, and not regarding another person's efforts, ( however "great they may be" in our eyes ), in order to bestow them favor.

Scripture teaches that salvation and eternal life are gifts ( Romans 6:23 ), not rewards:

" For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Please think about not only what His word says in all areas on this subject, but what the end result of this teaching is...
That salvation and an eternal relationship with the Lord would be based on something that we do ( works ), not unmerited grace ( something that God alone does ).

As it stands, what you're describing ( and what you are stating that the Bible teaches ) is that the Lord set up a system whereby mankind can earn their way into His favor;
Instead of that favor being bestowed upon a person simply out of the good pleasure of His will and according to His mercy, uninfluenced by anything that we do or say.

This is not what Paul told the churches in the letters to them, sir.
Rather, he told them, by inspiration, that they were the recipients of the gifts of God, and that it was because the Lord chose them to salvation...
Through sanctification of the Spirit and their belief of the truth ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 )...
That it was given to them, in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Him, but to suffer for His sake ( Philippians 1:29 ).

Election ( His choice of the believer ) is what made it that way, not our choice of Him.

Dave

This is not that deep. It doesn't require a deep theological debate. A person currently believing has been born again. It's speaking of evidence. That's the context. How do I know that I've been born again? One of the evidences is "Do you believe?", Answer; Yes. Then you've been born again. Not because being born again caused it, but because the first thing that happens when a person believes is that they are born again. Evidence, not cause. To say it's speaking of the "cause" is to go beyond the text. It's that simple. To try to use this as a proof text that a person must be born again to believe is simple going beyond the text.

 

[Brightfame52]

Dave

This is not that deep. It doesn't require a deep theological debate. A person currently believing has been born again. It's speaking of evidence. That's the context. How do I know that I've been born again? One of the evidences is "Do you believe?", Answer; Yes. Then you've been born again. Not because being born again caused it, but because the first thing that happens when a person believes is that they are born again. Evidence, not cause. To say it's speaking of the "cause" is to go beyond the text. It's that simple. To try to use this as a proof text that a person must be born again to believe is simple going beyond the text.

But how do you perform spiritual acts like hearing and believing before you are born spiritually, and in a spiritual dead condition ?

 

[Dave...]

But how do you perform spiritual acts like hearing and believing before you are born spiritually, and in a spiritual dead condition ?

That's a cause topic. This is a evidence verse.

 

[Brightfame52]

That's a cause topic. This is a evidence verse.

Yes it is evidence, believing which presupposes hearing which are spiritual acts, give evidence that one was in the past born spiritually. Believing is in the present tense in the greek, and ongoing activity, however born of God is perfect passive, a one time completed act in the past with continuing results or relevance in the present.

Just like love in the same verse is in the present tense, loving God and other believers is evidence of having been born of God, both are fruit of the Spirit. This verse condemns your views

 

[Dave G]

This is not that deep. It doesn't require a deep theological debate.

But it does involve questions that are answered by the Lord, in His word.
...and this is not a debate;

My reason for being here isn't "to win" an argument...which is petty and serves so purpose other than to elevate one's pride in one's self.

My friend, it's about establishing, through God's word, Who is responsible for what.
For example, Who is responsible for a changed heart, when it happens, why it happens and for whom it happens.
I hope that you understand why I hold this subject as importantly as I do;
Because in essence this is the message of the Gospel:

The good news of salvation to God's people, declaring how really bad off the recipients of God's grace were, before He made them aware of His great grace and mercy towards them.

 

[Dave G]

Not because being born again caused it, but because the first thing that happens when a person believes is that they are born again.

This is where bringing in everything that the Lord has to say about the subject, establishes which comes first...
And who is responsible for what.
If God "extends the hand, and man then grabs it", salvation is a cooperative effort resting upon the "weak link" of mankind..
Salvation is "of men"...whether or not He "got the ball rolling".

However, if God "extends the hand and pulls the dead person from the burning wreck and revives them", giving them new life and new purpose for an eternal relationship with Him, then salvation is "of the Lord";
Because He not only "got the ball rolling, but keeps it rolling".

No, I do not agree with you that the Scriptures teach that "when a person believes, they are then born again".
I believe what happened to Lydia in Acts 16 is what happens for all of God's children:

God opens the heart ( makes a person born again / regenerated / born from above ), which then guarantees that the person will listen to His words with a receptive heart and mind...

Instead of constantly rejecting His every word and desiring to "do their own thing" and make God "talk to the hand".

 

[Dave G]

Evidence, not cause.

I agree.
According to the Scriptures, a person who has truly believed on Christ is saved...and the evidence of that person's election, predestination, calling and justification ( Romans 8:29-30 ) is their belief on God's Son;
PLUS their growth in the understanding of His word, plus their eventual and growing obedience to His commandments over their lifetime.

My friend, it seems that there is so much evidence that you're missing in your studies, which is why I am encouraging you to dig deeper.

To say it's speaking of the "cause" is to go beyond the text. It's that simple. To try to use this as a proof text that a person must be born again to believe is simple going beyond the text.

Going beyond the text of the verse all by itself, I could agree, to an extent.

But going beyond what the Scripture, as a whole, tells us?
I cannot agree with you, Dave.
God, through His word, tells us far more than it seems you're picking up on.

For example, why a person believes in the first place.

 

[Dave G]

This one tells me that they believed because they were born of God:

" Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" <--- Evidential passage, answers the question of who believes and why. Because they are born of God. You may see this as a statement of evidence, I see it as a statement of evidence with cause.

John 10:26 tells me that people do not believe, because they are not Christ's sheep:

" Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" ( John 10:25-27 ) <----- Evidential passage. Answers the question of why people do and do not believe.

Notice that it does not say that they are not Christ's sheep because they do not believe, but the other way around.


Philippians 1:29 tells me that the Philippians believed because it was given to them to do so:

" Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
28 and in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
30 having the same conflict which ye saw in me, and now hear [to be] in me." <----- Evidential passage, with cause. Answers the question of why people believe...

Because God gave the Philippian believers the godly privilege to believe, and to suffer for Christ's sake.


There are many other places that the Lord answers the question of why some believe on His Son, and why others do not, Dave.
Yet, it seems you do not see these when you declare how a person can believe, and it result in them being born again.
Why is it that you are leaving these out when you are declaring how a person is saved?
I suppose you could say that it has me scratching my head.


Again, this is why I urge you to dig deeply into the Scriptures, to see if these things are so.
The answers are there in His every word, my friend.

 

[Dave...]

But it does involve questions that are answered by the Lord, in His word.
...and this is not a debate;

My reason for being here isn't "to win" an argument...which is petty and serves so purpose other than to elevate one's pride in one's self.

My friend, it's about establishing, through God's word, Who is responsible for what.
For example, Who is responsible for a changed heart, when it happens, why it happens and for whom it happens.
I hope that you understand why I hold this subject as importantly as I do;
Because in essence this is the message of the Gospel:

The good news of salvation to God's people, declaring how really bad off the recipients of God's grace were, before He made them aware of His great grace and mercy towards them.

I agree Dave, It's all about the truth, God's Word. God is responsible for our changed heart, the moment our life begins in Him. I think that Scripture is clear that the life in question begins when we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That's a problem if the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is received as a result of faith. So what motivates that faith? Is it the flesh? Is it God, by other means? To solve that problem, there are those who have the Holy Spirit entering a believer before faith, thus making that life begin before faith. It's an easy fix, but that idea is nowhere found in Scripture and is in fact hostel to Scripture. I would think that at this point, one who loves the Word of God as much as He loves God himself, would want to search the Scriptures and find out where that initial faith comes from. That's not wanting to win an argument, it's wanting to know the truth, instead of suppressing it to save the "system".

Think about that Dave, we were dead, yes, dead, in our trespasses and sins. The life came after we came to faith. What motivated that faith? Don't you want to know?

1 John 5:1, John 1:12-13, and John 3:3, none of these actually say what is claimed by todays reformed believers. Yet they build a complete theology based on their definition of mainly these three verses and redefine the Bible with it. These are assumptions, built on assumptions. And when you look to find the foundation of what all these assumptions are built on, there is only more assumptions. Added to that, there is a complete disregard for the nature of the relationship between man and the Holy Spirit from the OT, to the NT. The promises made. The transition at the birth of the Church when these promises began to be realized. These are all ignored.

Doesn't that at least raise some questions in your heart as to what is actually happening? Doesn't that make you want to search the Scriptures and test all things? I think that I pointed out enough to raise the curiosity of any believer. It's up to them what they do with it.

 

[Dave...]

Yes it is evidence, believing which presupposes hearing which are spiritual acts, give evidence that one was in the past born spiritually. Believing is in the present tense in the greek, and ongoing activity, however born of God is perfect passive, a one time completed act in the past with continuing results or relevance in the present.

Just like love in the same verse is in the present tense, loving God and other believers is evidence of having been born of God, both are fruit of the Spirit. This verse condemns your views

One thing that I learned about the Greek early on is that it's not the silver bullet that I thought it was going to be. In fact, it can be misused way easier than the English translation. Yes, that one time act (born of God) was in the past. As I said in the OP..."It's really simple. If you believe, you have been born again. Why? because the initial result of believing is to be born again."

By faith we enter this grace.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Believe and be saved is the Gospel. See the OP.

 

[Dave...]

This one tells me that they believed because they were born of God:

" Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" <--- Evidential passage, answers the question of who believes and why. Because they are born of God. You may see this as a statement of evidence, I see it as a statement of evidence with cause.

Are you guys even reading my posts anymore? From the OP. Please read this scripture and consider what it's saying.

The same John in his Gospels wrote this as the purpose of his Gospel. John 20:31

"but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name."

And later, John wrote this as the purpose of his Epistle, 1 John 5:13

" These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."

John 10:26 tells me that people do not believe, because they are not Christ's sheep:

" Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" ( John 10:25-27 ) <----- Evidential passage. Answers the question of why people do and do not believe.

Notice that it does not say that they are not Christ's sheep because they do not believe, but the other way around.

We went over this already. Where does it teach that a man is born again as a cause of their faith? This is a whole other discussion. Prove that man is born again before he comes to faith, then we will address this, yet again.

Philippians 1:29 tells me that the Philippians believed because it was given to them to do so:

" Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
28 and in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
30 having the same conflict which ye saw in me, and now hear [to be] in me." <----- Evidential passage, with cause. Answers the question of why people believe...

Because God gave the Philippian believers the godly privilege to believe, and to suffer for Christ's sake.

Think of faith in terms of ability, not faith given. Look it up in the original languages, ye Greek scholars. Both believing and suffering were parts of faithful Christian living.

Again, we receive the Holy Spirit as a result of faith, not the cause of faith. As has been shown many times. That's where the life comes from.

 

[Brightfame52]

One thing that I learned about the Greek early on is that it's not the silver bullet that I thought it was going to be. In fact, it can be misused way easier than the English translation. Yes, that one time act (born of God) was in the past. As I said in the OP..."It's really simple. If you believe, you have been born again. Why? because the initial result of believing is to be born again."

By faith we enter this grace.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Believe and be saved is the Gospel. See the OP.

This verse 1 Jn 5:1 condemns your views. It shows you dont know what you doing

 

[Dave G]

The same John in his Gospels wrote this as the purpose of his Gospel. John 20:31

"but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name."

Dave,
Who is the Bible written to?

All men, or....

" These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."

There it is.

 

[Dave G]

We went over this already. Where does it teach that a man is born again as a cause of their faith?

We have the pieces in significant statements.
How one puts them together is just as important as seeing each piece, my friend.

For example, where does our faith as believers in Jesus Christ ( God's elect ) come from?
Have you not read:

" Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."

Again, where does the believer's faith actually come from?

" We [who are] Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." ( Galatians 2:15-16 ). <--- The faith "of" ( in the Greek, the word means "from" ) Jesus Christ.

" I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. " ( Galatians 2:20 ).

" But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe." ( Galatians 3:22 ).

" But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: " ( Romans 3:21-22 )

" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:8-10 ).

The faith "of" ( by or from ) Jesus Christ...which, by the way, is yet another evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ) of a true believer.
They have faith, and it's the kind that does not fail under the trials and tribulations of this life.


Did you miss these, Dave?
I did, for approximately 10 years after I first picked up the Bible and started studying it for myself.

 

[Dave G]

With that said, where do you see that mankind can contribute the kind of faith that never fails under sometimes crushing trials?
Where do you see that mankind contributes belief, and God does all the rest?

I do...
If I read parts of the Bible and stop before finding out what else the Lord has to say about a given subject.

Where do I see that faith is a gift from God to His elect?
In the details, after I continue reading...watching those details pop out one by one as I study it over and over.

That, Dave, is why I believe the way that I do.
Because God's word itself does not stop where most of today's preachers and teachers seem to always stop...
At the doorway of belief on Christ for the forgiveness of my sins.


There's more to it all than that.

 

[Dave G]

Prove that man is born again before he comes to faith, then we will address this, yet again.

" And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted [thither].
14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul." ( Acts 16:13-14 ).

This is where I see God opening a person's heart ( making them born again ), so that that person will, indeed, listen to His words instead of rejecting them...
Which is what all men do by nature.

However, I'm going to almost guarantee that you disagree with me, which means that we have nothing left to talk about, doesn't it?