1 John 5:17

[Osage Bluestem]

1 John 5:17 ESV
All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

Last night at church we had a discussion on this passage. There are various interpretations people have of it.

In your view, what is the sin not unto death.

Keep in mind this passage:

Romans 6:23 ESV
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Tom Butler]

My best guess is that the "sin unto death" applies to believers. It has nothing to do with spiritual death.

It refers to a believer in such persistent sin that he simply kills him.

What that sin is, or how much or how long, I don't know.

 

[freeatlast]

1 John 5:17 ESV
All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

Last night at church we had a discussion on this passage. There are various interpretations people have of it.

In your view, what is the sin not unto death.

Keep in mind this passage:

Romans 6:23 ESV
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This has been made way to difficult when it is a simple passage. The KJV has added the article "a" to the passage and it should not be there which confuses the passage. The answer is the sin you do not die in. In other words if we die (lost) in sin we die lost. If we are saved and die our sins are covered.

 

[webdog]

My best guess is that the "sin unto death" applies to believers. It has nothing to do with spiritual death.

It refers to a believer in such persistent sin that he simply kills him.

What that sin is, or how much or how long, I don't know.

Agreed. I believe it is also for believers, and is sin that points others away from Christ.

I've witnessed this firsthand in my family. My sister (a believer) was taken in 2003 at the age of 25 after she met a guy and began to get into some evil things. She never had a boyfriend before she met this guy, and when someone showed some interest in her, she fell head over heels for him. Unfortunately, he was involved in vampirism and occultic practices. My sister slowly began to follow "her man", and I believe God basically said "enough is enough" and she died a horrible death due to CO poisoning along with him.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Agreed. I believe it is also for believers, and is sin that points others away from Christ.

I've witnessed this firsthand in my family. My sister (a believer) was taken in 2003 at the age of 25 after she met a guy and began to get into some evil things. She never had a boyfriend before she met this guy, and when someone showed some interest in her, she fell head over heels for him. Unfortunately, he was involved in vampirism and occultic practices. My sister slowly began to follow "her man", and I believe God basically said "enough is enough" and she died a horrible death due to CO poisoning along with him.

I'm sorry for your loss.

 

[Aaron]

John Calvin:

What, then, is the meaning of the Apostle? He denies that sins are mortal, which, though worthy of death, are yet not thus punished by God. He therefore does not estimate sins in themselves, but forms a judgment of them according to the paternal kindness of God, which pardons the guilt, where yet the fault is. In short, God does not give over to death those whom he has restored to life, though it depends not on them that they are not alienated from life.

There is a sin unto death I have already said that the sin to which there is no hope of pardon left, is thus called. But it may be asked, what this is; for it must be very atrocious, when God thus so severely punishes it. It may be gathered from the context, that it is not, as they say, a partial fall, or a transgression of a single commandment, but apostasy, by which men wholly alienate themselves from God. For the Apostle afterwards adds, that the children of God do not sin, that is, that they do not forsake God, and wholly surrender themselves to Satan, to be his slaves. Such a defection, it is no wonder that it is mortal; for God never thus deprives his own people of the grace of the Spirit; but they ever retain some spark of true religion. They must then be reprobate and given up to destruction, who thus fall away so as to have no fear of God.

 

[RevJWWhiteJr]

John Calvin:

What, then, is the meaning of the Apostle? He denies that sins are mortal, which, though worthy of death, are yet not thus punished by God. He therefore does not estimate sins in themselves, but forms a judgment of them according to the paternal kindness of God, which pardons the guilt, where yet the fault is. In short, God does not give over to death those whom he has restored to life, though it depends not on them that they are not alienated from life.

There is a sin unto death I have already said that the sin to which there is no hope of pardon left, is thus called. But it may be asked, what this is; for it must be very atrocious, when God thus so severely punishes it. It may be gathered from the context, that it is not, as they say, a partial fall, or a transgression of a single commandment, but apostasy, by which men wholly alienate themselves from God. For the Apostle afterwards adds, that the children of God do not sin, that is, that they do not forsake God, and wholly surrender themselves to Satan, to be his slaves. Such a defection, it is no wonder that it is mortal; for God never thus deprives his own people of the grace of the Spirit; but they ever retain some spark of true religion. They must then be reprobate and given up to destruction, who thus fall away so as to have no fear of God.

Well, I've never studied Calvinism (because of what I would consider is the obvious conflict with free will). But if this is the gist of the concept, I'm glad now I never waisted my time.

My sister (a believer) was taken in 2003 at the age of 25 after she met a guy and began to get into some evil things. She never had a boyfriend before she met this guy, and when someone showed some interest in her, she fell head over heels for him. Unfortunately, he was involved in vampirism and occultic practices, and she died a horrible death due to CO poisoning along with him.

My heart and prayers go out to you and your family for your loss.

 

[Aaron]

Well, I've never studied Calvinism (because of what I would consider is the obvious conflict with free will). But if this is the gist of the concept, I'm glad now I never waisted my time.

I'm glad, too. The less we have of unstudious individuals attempting to expound upon it the better.

 

[Robert Snow]

I'm glad, too. The less we have of unstudious individuals attempting to expound upon it the better.

Were you predestined to be obnoxious and rude. And please don't say you are just being honest and forthright. You were being rude, which comprises most of your postings.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

At our table at church we felt that the sin not unto death was a sin committed by a saved person. An unsanctified saved person will still sin but not unto death as he is atoned for.

There are sins that an unsanctified saved person will still commit. There are also sins that no saved person would commit, murder, rape, etc.

So we thought a sin unto death was a sin commited by a person that showed he wasn't really saved, but was adamant that he was. A sin not unto death was a sin committed by a saved person.

The ESV study bible and Matthew Henry agree closest to this view.

Other views expressed were Macarthurs view that says that a sin unot death is a sin unot physical death and a sin not unto death is a sin by a saved person.

There was also the view that the book of 1 John is dealing with false teachers in many ways and that a sin unto death was the hardened teaching that Christ was somehting other than Christ. In this case it is obvious that the person isn't saved even though they calim to be and that is a sin unto death because they are so hardened that they will not repent. I think this view falls into the 1st view.

 

[Zenas]

At our table at church we felt that the sin not unto death was a sin committed by a saved person. An unsanctified saved person will still sin but not unto death as he is atoned for.

There are sins that an unsanctified saved person will still commit. There are also sins that no saved person would commit, murder, rape, etc.

So we thought a sin unto death was a sin commited by a person that showed he wasn't really saved, but was adamant that he was. A sin not unto death was a sin committed by a saved person.

Did your group come up with a more comprehensive list than murder and rape? If so, would you care to share it?

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Did your group come up with a more comprehensive list than murder and rape? If so, would you care to share it?

We didn't. It was a table discussion about sin and what it means to us and this passage came up. It was a topic for awhile.

We just concluded that there are some sins that saved people won't do and some that they will.

Saved people cannot ever sin unto death and lost people cannot but sin unot death...etc was the train of thought.

The ESV study bible and Matthew Henry seem to agree, as well as one of our associate pastors who narrowed it down to false teachers teaching lieas about the person of Jesus such as "he isn't God" etc...

 

[Amy.G]

We just concluded that there are some sins that saved people won't do and some that they will.

Saved people cannot ever sin unto death and lost people cannot but sin unot death...etc was the train of thought.

I am assuming that you are talking about spiritual death. Most people I know say the sin unto death is purely physical. I am struggling with this passage, but I tend to think it is more spiritual in nature.

We have debated before on this board about whether or not Christians can commit certain sins. I started a thread on it a few years ago. I am of the mind that there are certain sins a Christian will not commit, rape being one of them and also child molestation and serial killings.
But most people on the board think I'm wrong and will say that Christians can commit any sin that an unbeliever may commit. I just don't know.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

I am assuming that you are talking about spiritual death. Most people I know say the sin unto death is purely physical. I am struggling with this passage, but I tend to think it is more spiritual in nature.

We have debated before on this board about whether or not Christians can commit certain sins. I started a thread on it a few years ago. I am of the mind that there are certain sins a Christian will not commit, rape being one of them and also child molestation and serial killings.
But most people on the board think I'm wrong and will say that Christians can commit any sin that an unbeliever may commit. I just don't know.

So you agree with John Macarthur's explaination given in the Macarthur Study Bible.

I checked that one, the ESV, The Reformation SB, and Matthew Henry on this topic.

I believe that a saved person will not do certain sins and if he does it is clear evidence he is not saved. I think the spirit will keep him from it. There are just certain sins that are absolutley loveless that one with the Spirit of Love wouldn't do.

 

[Amy.G]

So you agree with John Macarthur's explaination given in the Macarthur Study Bible.

I checked that one, the ESV, The Reformation SB, and Matthew Henry on this topic.

I believe that a saved person will not do certain sins and if he does it is clear evidence he is not saved. I think the spirit will keep him from it. There are just certain sins that are absolutley loveless that one with the Spirit of Love wouldn't do.

I haven't read MacArthur's notes but I would guess that I do agree with him. I agree with him on most things.

You will get some opposition to this thought from the BB though.

 

[webdog]

So you agree with John Macarthur's explaination given in the Macarthur Study Bible.

I checked that one, the ESV, The Reformation SB, and Matthew Henry on this topic.

I believe that a saved person will not do certain sins and if he does it is clear evidence he is not saved. I think the spirit will keep him from it. There are just certain sins that are absolutley loveless that one with the Spirit of Love wouldn't do.

If this is the case, why woulnd't the Spirit keep believers from committing any kind of sin? Are there some sins of believers that are permissible to God, and others are strictly off limits?

When you look at the church at Corinth is is apparent there were heinous crimes committed.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

If this is the case, why woulnd't the Spirit keep believers from committing any kind of sin? Are there some sins of believers that are permissible to God, and others are strictly off limits?

When you look at the church at Corinth is is apparent there were heinous crimes committed.

Not everyone in the church of corinth was saved.

Also if a man claims to be a christian and yet is murdering, raping, and hating people he is not a christian. We are to discern the spirits and that one is not good. Christians don't do that. Read 1 John.

Also this is an interesting document regarding this subject.

http://www.answers.org/bible/sininout.html

The Spirit convicts man of sin. And it is clear that if a man hates his brother he is not of God whether he claims to be or not, instead he is a liar and is not saved.

1 John 4:20 ESV
If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.

1 John 3:15 ESV
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

1 John 2:11 ESV
But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

 

[webdog]

"Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall." - Apostle Paul

 

[Osage Bluestem]

"Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall." - Apostle Paul

1 John 5:13 NIV
13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

1 John 3:15 ESV
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

There is no one who hates his brother who really has faith in Christ.

 

[Tom Butler]

Agreed. I believe it is also for believers, and is sin that points others away from Christ.

I've witnessed this firsthand in my family. My sister (a believer) was taken in 2003 at the age of 25 after she met a guy and began to get into some evil things. She never had a boyfriend before she met this guy, and when someone showed some interest in her, she fell head over heels for him. Unfortunately, he was involved in vampirism and occultic practices. My sister slowly began to follow "her man", and I believe God basically said "enough is enough" and she died a horrible death due to CO poisoning along with him.

How sad,

I'm wondering if such "sin unto death" has more to do with the persistence than the nature of the sin. And, whether it may have to do with the public nature of the sin, which would bring reproach on the name of the Lord Jesus. I think bringing reproach would be similar to pointing people away from Christ.

I'm asking questions here rather than making flat statements.