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1 Timothy 2:1-6 Another all?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by padredurand, Nov 24, 2004.

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  1. padredurand

    padredurand Well-Known Member
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    I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 1 Timothy 2:1-6

    I'm not the sharpest pencil in the crayon box ;) but it appears we have as much trouble with the word all as a certain former president had with the word is. Sometimes it means all or maybe just some of all or all of you but none of them...

    What happens if we modified these verses with phrasing for less than all?

    I exhort therefore, that, first of most of the time, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for quite a few men; 2 For kings, and for most that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in substantial godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have the elect men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for didn't you read verse 4? I said the elect, to be testified in due time.

    More than 700 times the word pas is translated ALL and synonyms like: all kinds, all men, all people, all respects any, any at all, anything, continually, every kind, everyone, everything, whatever, whoever. Have we adopted a translation of a word that means ALL-ALL but sometimes SOME-ALL? What is the basis for this variable translation? It cannot be any rule of linguistics can it?

    1. In the example above a modified rendering applying the SOME-ALL rule makes the exhortation absurd.

    2. You cannot apply both rules at the same time. How would you distinguish between the ALL-ALL and the SOME-ALL application?

    3. If you applied the ALL-ALL then all your Calvinist friends would stop talking to you.

    Perplexing ain't it?
     
    #1 padredurand, Nov 24, 2004
  2. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    My brother I never knew there were all those 'all's' in those quickly read verses.

    Why not just let the word all convey it's proper meaning. One of God's greatest desires is that we know that the Son 'wishes' (Greek) all persons to be saved, and to come to His knowledge of the truth. Why study Greek for ministry if one is going to balk at the exact meaning of word pictures.

    Does 'one' in verse five mean one of many different kinds of gods, or does Scripture mean that the Triune Godhead is the only One? Obviously, the last phrase is correct. There is only one true God and He is the Lord.

    Jesus death on the Cross was not merely for the 'few' as in Matthew 7:14 or the elect only, but His substitutionary redemption was made available to everyone. In the words of God Himself: 'Who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.' [Galatians 2:6; Acts 17:30; Acts 10:34; I Peter 3:18; Hebrews 2:9; I John 5:13; John 3:16]

    The Word of the Lord stands forever even if the Protestant Reformers did not get it all correct theologically speaking.

    Upstate New York is a familiar term to me; I lived in Schenectady until I left for Bible College.

    Can you agree with most of my above thoughts?
     
    #2 Ray Berrian, Nov 26, 2004
  3. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    That truth Ray, will never crumble under the awsome weight of error that Calvinism brings with it.
     
    #3 Wes Outwest, Nov 27, 2004
  4. nwells

    nwells New Member

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    Here is a verse for your consideration:

    Matthew 20:28 (NASB95)
    "just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

    Because He lives,
    Nathan
     
    #4 nwells, Nov 29, 2004
  5. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    We agree that most souls will end up in destruction and that only the (relative) 'few' will find Christ or be found of Him. [Matthew 7:14] This does not take away from the Divine truth that His provision of atonement was made for all sinful persons. [I John 2:2]
     
    #5 Ray Berrian, Nov 29, 2004
  6. padredurand

    padredurand Well-Known Member
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    Didn't mean to ignore your question. I was at one of those New York wildlife management conferences last week and just got back to checking the boards. Unfortunately, we agree, Brother Ray. Doesn't make for much of a debate does it? My wife mentioned something I thought was interesting (actually two things).

    1. In this context, the totality of all is indisputable. If we concede that all means all-all and not some-all here:

    4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 1 Timothy 2:4-6

    ... then how could it be possible to say that the same word means something much different in other verses? We can question the addressee but we can't make a word say something it doesn't say.

    2. Why didn't the KJV translators deal with a word that could mean all-all or some-all if such a word had such transient value?

    3. Does God will that no women be saved re: verse 4?

    See what I get for marrying up?


    Met your brother's pastor, briefly, the week before last. Don't you miss the shadow of GE?
     
    #6 padredurand, Nov 29, 2004
  7. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    I could not Email you so here goes . . .

    The pastor's name is Rev. Reese. My brother and father are great sportsmen and may have been at your wildlife gathering if it were held near Albany or Schenectady.
     
    #7 Ray Berrian, Nov 29, 2004
  8. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    [quote4 Who will have all men to be saved...[/quote]

    'All' must be modified because of Eli's sons. Eli was told that no sacrifice would be given for them so they make the exception and they modify 'all' to 'all kinds'.
    1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "
    So God would not say at a later time that He wants 'all' when He had disqualified some already.

    johnp.
     
    #8 johnp., Dec 6, 2004
  9. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    The same goes for this.

    'All' must be modified because of Eli's sons. Eli was told that no sacrifice would be given for them so they make the exception and they modify 'all' to 'all kinds'.
    1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "
    So God would not say at a later time that He ransomed Himself for 'all' when He had disqualified some already.

    johnp.
     
    #9 johnp., Dec 6, 2004
  10. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Ray, the same goes for this.

    1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "

    The Divine truth above proves you wrong does it not.

    johnp.
     
    #10 johnp., Dec 6, 2004
  11. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    The divine truth is that it is not for the sinful persons that Christ died. It is instead for the purpose of removing sin as a factor in man's salvation so that whosoever beleiveth in him should not perish but have EVERLASTING LIFE.

    If the penalty had not been paid once for all, NO MAN COULD HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE, no matter how much one believes. The debt owed for sinning would still be collected from all who sin, and All sin! So, there could be no everlasting life and Jesus would be a fraud! But alas, We know the truth about Jesus, and he removed the penalty for sin! So, Believe in Jesus and live life to the fullest my friends, Jesus gave it to you! Have no fear of Dying because with faith in God, you merely pass from this life to the next through the portal of death of the natural flesh which free's your eternal spirit from your temporal body. You do not pass the Judge nor do you collect $200. You go straight to the Good shepherd!
     
    #11 Wes Outwest, Dec 6, 2004
  12. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    johnp,

    You said quote '1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "

    The Divine truth above proves you wrong does it not?[/quote]

    Just because a few men say people cannot atone for other people's sins, in the Presence of God, does not mean that God will not forgive and cleans away sins.

    In my father-in-laws church a priest refused to give a dying person the body and blood of the Lord, through the Eucharist. He said he would not give the Holy Communion because the woman was so negligent for a few years. Does this mean if the woman prayed 'her act of contrition,' that the Lord would not forgive her and cleanse away her sins?

    Although we do not believe in Roman theology, I think you see my point. The Lord is always ready to forgive because He is the only Mediator. [I Timothy 2:5]

    Even under the O.T. a person's faith and trust in the Lord was what really counted in His governance of human beings.
     
    #12 Ray Berrian, Dec 6, 2004
  13. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Ray.

    Saved without the sacrifice! You have done away with Calvary. Without the spilling of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
    You said, "...the Divine truth that His provision of atonement was made for all sinful persons."
    I said, "The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering."
    You said, "...the Divine truth that His provision of atonement was made for all sinful persons."
    But that is not true is it? Regardless of anything else.

    That has nothing to do with what was said. Not 'all' have been atoned for have they? It's a simple yes or no.

    johnp.
     
    #13 johnp., Dec 7, 2004
  14. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Wes.

    What is it then to be Wes? 1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "
    A change of doctrine is called for. That would stop Jesus being fraudulent.
    For Eli's sons? A simple yes or no will do.

    1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "

    johnp.
     
    #14 johnp., Dec 7, 2004
  15. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    ALL hail the power of Jesus Name--

    John 17: 1,2, "These words spake Jesus and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over ALL flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him."

    Jesus did not die for the sins of ALL the world--only those which have their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life--from before the foundation of the world.

    God knows ALL. He loves Jacob and hates Esau. God does according to His Sovereign Will and for His good pleasure.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
    #15 Bro. James, Dec 7, 2004
  16. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Brother James,

    God never gave to the Father more people than believed on His Son. God has made sinner responsible to Him.[John 3:16] Does He call out and command only His elect to repent? The answer is in Acts 17:30. He does not randomly pick out a few here and one or two over their to be His flock.

    He is God of order and decrees His will. His will is that not any should perish. [II Peter 3:9 & John 3:17] Our God of justice, mercy and love does have a concern for all who have Fallen in Adam.

    The first Adam was made a living soul; the second Adam {meaning Jesus} quickens the spirits of those who believe in Christ. [I Corinthians 15:45-47]
     
    #16 Ray Berrian, Dec 7, 2004
  17. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    Random and Few--

    No, indeed. Very specific--their names were written--indelibly in the Lamb's Book of Life--before the foundation of the world.

    Not a few, a multitude of names are written there--all by the Grace of God, by His Will, for His good pleasure.

    Praise God for His marvelous Grace.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
    #17 Bro. James, Dec 7, 2004
  18. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Rev 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

    "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."
     
    #18 johnp., Dec 7, 2004
  19. Southern

    Southern New Member

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    Anyone interested,
    Here is a great link dealing with 2 Tim. 2:4ff:

    http://www.planetkc.com/puritan/Articles/1Timothy2_4.htm

    Also, there was already a forum on this verse on pg. 2 of the Calvinism/Arminiansim Debate forum. Go their and look at what had already been covered.

    May God bless you all...

    Look forward to being back on the board after this semester's finals! Pray for me!
     
    #19 Southern, Dec 9, 2004
  20. padredurand

    padredurand Well-Known Member
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    Southern, Praying for you to have bold confidence during your finals. I have scoured this board for months looking for one single statement and it came in the summation of the link you provided (note bold).

    Regardless of how well we can justify our position -whether it be Calvinistic or Arminian or any shade between the two - it is meaningless without application. You say God will only save His elect and another claims His elect to be conditionally elect. Think about that for a minute in light of what Cervinka said. The only conclusion we can draw is that the debate that has torn and divided for so many years is, in its sum, meaningless. In the flesh, we cannot recognize the elect in any way, shape, form or matter until after they are saved. As Cervinka asserts, God will save all sorts of men from prince to pauper.

    You know that guy with the smell of last night's whiskey on his breath, a cigarette hanging out of the corner of his mouth while he bangs your garbage can in the back of his truck at 5 am? Only God knows if he is among the elect. What of the woman who has worked Hospice for years bringing care and compassion during desperate times? Is she among those who God would save? God knows and none of us do.

    It's one thing to understand a point/points of doctrine and it is quite acceptable that we do not agree in all of them. Sadly, the majority of my exposure to Calvinism falls into the category as Cervinka describes as
    To the downtrodden we throw a few dollars around this time of year, pity them for their misfortune and secretly hope they will never bring their smelly selves to interrupt our carefully prepared three hymns and a 40-minute sermon services. Meanwhile we openly solicit the influentially affluent- praying that they are indeed of the elect - because, after all, our poor church could really use someone like that; be it for their charm, poise, demeanor or checkbook.
     
    #20 padredurand, Dec 10, 2004
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