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2 Timothy 2:10

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Helen, Mar 28, 2007.

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  1. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    This verse was used in another thread by Pastor Larry to defend the concept that the elect are chosen in eternity past for salvation. But that is not what this verse is saying at all!

    KJV: Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

    NIV: Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

    Now, whoever the elect are, Paul is working that they ALSO, or TOO, may obtain salvation through Christ.

    What does that 'also' mean? There are two possibilities:

    1. If the elect are those, as Calvinism teaches, who are chosen for salvation from eternity past, then they will not all obtain that salvation.

    or

    2. The elect are not elected unto salvation but 'the elect' refers to something else, or someone else. And Paul is praying and working that they, too, may obtain salvation through Christ.

    The first option is clearly nonsense where Calvinism is concerned and must be discarded.

    The second causes Calvinism itself to be discarded because the elect are, in this option, clearly not elected unto salvation itself.

    Folks, the elect are the Jewish people. Formed and elected by God to show Himself both spiritually and then, through the Incarnation, physically, to the world. They are the people who were called out physically as Christians are called out spiritually. And Paul is praying and working that they may be saved through Christ as well as the Gentiles he is an Apostle to.

    Read Paul's anguish for his own people in Romans 9:2-5 --
    I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

    Paul confirms this concept of his people being the elect a number of places, and very strongly in Romans 11.

    verses 28-29: As far as the gospel is concerned, they [the Jewish people] are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

    The same word which translated into 'elect' or 'elected' also translates into 'choose' or 'chosen.' In Romans 11:4-5 Paul is in the middle of an explanation about the Jewish people at the time of Elijah, and we find the following:
    And what was God's answer to him? 'I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.' So, too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

    This is clearly and specifically talking about the Jewish people. I did a partial study on this for Baptist Board some time ago and it is up on our website here: http://www.setterfield.org/elect.htm

    There are many, many other passages referring to the Jewish people as the elect, and not generally as those who are saved. Pastor Larry's use of the 2 Timothy passage is therefore not only erroneous as applying to Calvinism, but actually refutes it.
     
    #1 Helen, Mar 28, 2007
  2. Pastor Timothy

    Pastor Timothy Member
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    Hurray for you!!! I really enjoyed your observation of the Scripture.
     
    #2 Pastor Timothy, Mar 28, 2007
  3. Pastor Timothy

    Pastor Timothy Member
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    This also gives me further thought into this issue!
     
    #3 Pastor Timothy, Mar 28, 2007
  4. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28 New Member

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    Why isn't there a third possibility??

    Namely that Paul is saying that he is enduring everything for the sake of the elect, that they also(like himself) may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus...
    Verse 9 has him talking about his suffering in chains and verse 10 has him explaining what motivates his suffering:
    the salvation of the elect
     
    #4 Isaiah40:28, Mar 28, 2007
  5. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28 New Member

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    Hi Helen,
    I was browsing your linked article in the OP and came across these comments with the words that you bolded:
    Isn't that what Calvinism asserts, that the "elect" refers to all Christians?

    Yet, here you leave no room for the "elect" to mean "all Christians".
    So, what's up?
     
    #5 Isaiah40:28, Mar 28, 2007
  6. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Yes, so that the elect can be saved, just like Paul is saved.

    It doesn't seem to me that this deals with the meaning of "also."

    "Also" doesn't really have "two possibilities." It means "in addition to."

    No, not at all. You guys keep saying this, but have yet to prove it, and in fact have been proven wrong. Here, it is impossible that Paul was speaking of the Jews, because Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles. Yes, he had concern for his people, but if you look at his travels, and his epistles, you see his concern was for the Gentiles. He was not in jail for preachign to Jews, but to Gentiles.

    No, you simply didn't exegete the passage. You started (as always) with your presupposition, and then ignored everything that contradicted it. In the process, you changed the meaning of the passage, and changed the meaning of elect.

    When you read the passage it is a simple philosophy of ministry: Paul is willing to be in jail for preaching because there are elect (chosen to salvation) who need to hear the preaching so that they can be saved.

    Your efforts to disprove Calvinism continually fall short because they ignore whole sections of Scripture, and then try to cram meaning into other passages that was never intended to be there. This is an example.
     
    #6 Pastor Larry, Mar 28, 2007
  7. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Dear Isaiah 40:28

    Please check the contexts. In the 2 Timothy verse the elect are clearly not those who are guaranteed salvation. This use of 'elect' is evident several times in Paul's writings, as I tried to point out.

    In addition, there are a number of words which can translate as chosen, or choose. Several are used in the New Testament writings.

    I would also appreciate it very much if you would not take quotes out of context from my essay, not to mention out of context from the Bible.

    Thank you.
     
    #7 Helen, Mar 28, 2007
  8. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    from Pastor Larry's post:
    When you read the passage it is a simple philosophy of ministry: Paul is willing to be in jail for preaching because there are elect (chosen to salvation) who need to hear the preaching so that they can be saved.

    Question from me: Are you saying, then, that there are those of the elect who will not be saved? In other words, can a person be elect and yet not be saved if he or she does not hear the Gospel?
     
    #8 Helen, Mar 28, 2007
  9. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Strange that Jews and angels are elect but us poor Gentile dogs are not. I thought there was no Greek or Jew in Christ? Col 3:11 ...put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11 Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

    I thought right. :)

    John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
    John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

    john.
     
    #9 johnp., Mar 28, 2007
  10. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28 New Member

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    In addition to Paul obtaining salvation, he is enduring the chains so that the elect may also obtain it.
    IOW, that they may "in addition to" Paul obtain salvation.
     
    #10 Isaiah40:28, Mar 28, 2007
  11. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28 New Member

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    Answer from me:
    No.
    The elect are those who WILL undoubtably be saved by hearing the Gospel.
    (not going to argue about infant salvation)

    Pastor Larry, your answer?
     
    #11 Isaiah40:28, Mar 28, 2007
  12. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    No, all the elect will hear the gospel and will believe.

    The elect in 2 Tim 2:10 will get saved. (Lest you bring up the "might," the aspect there is subjunctive, the same used in John 3:16. So think about that before you bring it up.)
     
    #12 Pastor Larry, Mar 28, 2007
  13. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    You mean if he does not endure chains they will not obtain salvation?
     
    #13 Helen, Mar 28, 2007
  14. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Is there, then, the possibility that anyone who is elect will not hear the Gospel?
     
    #14 Helen, Mar 28, 2007
  15. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Regardless of his answer, the Bible says differently. First you cannot avoid the problem of infants and, second, please note that John says
    He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but how own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God --

    HIS OWN did not receive Him....

    But those who have received Him, who believe(d)....

    Calvinism cannot stand unless verses are taken out of context or isolated from their contexts.
     
    #15 Helen, Mar 28, 2007
  16. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    2 Timothy 2:10 (RDB)
    Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain salvation in Christ Jesus with its eternal glory.

    There’s a passage that closely parallels 2 Timothy 2:10 found in Colossians (1:21-25).

    IMHO, neither of them are good passages to prove a point regarding election....however I'll take a stab at another viewpoint not mentioned.

    God’s foreordained election does not place bonds upon the individual or restrict the necessity of hearing, believing and enduring.

    Much of Paul’s letters to Timothy deal with perseverance/endurance; Paul’s endurance, Timothy’s endurance, the believers endurance.

    Paul's suffering strengthens believers, enabling them to continue in the faith.

    2 Timothy 2:19 (ESV)
    But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

    1 Timothy 6:12 (ESV)
    Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and about which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

    Rob
     
    #16 Deacon, Mar 28, 2007
  17. AresMan

    AresMan Active Member
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    Usually this is answered by the issue of the death of infants.
     
    #17 AresMan, Mar 28, 2007
  18. DQuixote

    DQuixote New Member

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    Hooray, Helen!! Excellent!! :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: SUPER website!!

    Romans 9 thru 11 is the "Jewish Interlude." Paul writes to Christians in Rome about his agonizing concern for his brethren, the Jews, God's chosen, God's elect, that they, having crucified their Messiah, will now come to faith in Him as Savior and Lord, just as the Gentiles were doing. Awesome! Scripture is sooooo clear when one rightly divides the Word of Truth. So-called "errors" or "contradictions" disappear! It makes reading the Bible a glorious adventure. You've heard people say about a book they purchased, "I couldn't put it down." That's how the Bible is to come alive for all of us. I go back to my oft-cited basis for rightly dividing scripture: 1 Corinthians 2:1-16. Zowie!

     
    #18 DQuixote, Mar 28, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 28, 2007
  19. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    #19 webdog, Mar 28, 2007
  20. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    No there is not, but since they are certainly going to hear it, somebody certainly has to say it.
     
    #20 whatever, Mar 28, 2007
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