3 days latter

Well what do we know? We know Jesus isn't a liar. We know what Jesus said to the thief. So we know that he was in paradise on that day. We know that the Father is in Heaven. If paradise and Heaven are the same then we can make the assumption that Jesus was with the Father since they were both in the same place.

 

CAN we get an admin to move this to the "Did Jesus go to Hell when he died" thread?

 

Paradise, also known as "Abraham's Bosom" was, before the Ascension, NOT in heaven. It was a place of hope and rest and peace, but not heaven. It was not 'soul sleep', for we see in the story of Lazarus and the rich man that both were still fully conscious.

They were, however, 'in death,'. It was in that prison Jesus went with the man on the cross and preached to them. And then led them to heaven after the Ascension. Paradise is no longer an entity in itself -- it merged with heaven at the time of or shortly after the Ascension.

 

Barnes Notes on 1 Peter 3:19 say this verse means "he having gone":

He went - To wit, in the days of Noah. No particular stress should be laid here on the phrase “he went.” The literal sense is, “he, having gone, preached,” etc. πορευθεὶς poreutheis. It is well known that such expressions are often redundant in Greek writers, as in others. So Herodotus, “to these things they spake, saying” - for they said. “And he, speaking, said;” that is, he said. So Eph_2:17, “And came and preached peace,” etc. Mat_9:13, “but go and learn what that meaneth,” etc. So God is often represented as coming, as descending, etc., when he brings a message to mankind. Thus, Gen_11:5, “The Lord came down to see the city and the tower.” Exo_19:20, “the Lord came down upon Mount Sinai.” Num_11:25, “the Lord came down in a cloud.” 2Sa_22:10, “he bowed the heavens and came down.” The idea, however, would be conveyed by this language that he did this personally, or by himself, and not merely by employing the agency of another. It would then be implied here, that though the instrumentality of Noah was employed, yet that it was done not by the Holy Spirit, but by him who afterward became incarnate. On the supposition, therefore, that this whole passage refers to his preaching to the antediluvians in the time of Noah, and not to the “spirits” after they were confined in prison, this is language which the apostle would have properly and probably used. If that supposition meets the full force of the language, then no argument can be based on it in proof that he went to preach to them after their death, and while his body was lying in the grave.

 

Wrong. Jesus did not say the theif next to him would be with HIS FATHER in paradise... he said he would be with Him (Jesus) in paradise.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

So to make the leap and say he would be with the Father in paradise is to put words in Jesus' mouth.

 

(Joh 10:30 KJV)
I and my Father are one.

 

"Nevertheless, not my will but thine be done...."

 

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Jesus was separated from God for the first time in eternity.

 

The Greek is ego kai ho pater heis esmen, which contextually translates to "I and the Father are of one accord". We in English tend to misunderstand it to contextually be "I and the Father are the same", but that is not what is said in the Greek. This verse is an example where the Greek does not translate exactly the same way into English. Now, that doesn't take away from the belief that Jesus is divine, and God the Son. It does, however, demonstrate that the Father and the Son are distinct from each other, which is abundant in scripture elsewhere.

 

Luke 23:43 "43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

The original language that the new testament was written in, did not use punctuation's. The commas in this verse and others, were added when translated to English. The person who made this translation, apparently believed that the dead go straight to heaven or hell. Because of this, he placed the comma before the words to day instead of after them. If one were to place the comma after the words to day it would completely change the meaning of the verse. It would simply mean that Christ was telling the thief on that day, that he would be in paradise with him. This would be a more accurate and biblically sound rendering of the verse.

We know that Christ is not a liar. Therefore He could not have been telling the thief that on that day he would be with Christ in paradise, for Christ did not ascend to His Father until after His resurrection. He himself said so.

John 20:16-17 "16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

The Lord Jesus Christ was in the grave, that is the heart of the earth for three days, just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days and nights. Jonah's description of his experience in the belly of a whale is certainly no description of paradise, nor does it seem to depict a place of eternal torment. Yet this experience was said by Christ to be a sign for those who were seeking proof of Christ's divinity, that is that He would be delivered from the power of the grave, or death.

Matt 12:39-40 "39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Apart from this, it is very unlikely that the thief on the cross died on this same day that Christ did. One who was crucified usually did not die for days. This is one of the things that made the punishment so terrible. Christ, as we know, died of a broken heart.

John 19:31-34 31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

Notice what Christ says in the following verses.

John 14:1-3 1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

In verse three Christ says that He will come again and receive us unto Himself. This is a clear reference to his second coming, at which time we will all be gathered togehter to be with Him forever more. Christ did not say, when you die you will be with me, he said when I come again, I will receive you unto myself.Bye for now.

Your brother in Christ, Keith.

 

When Jesus cried, "It is finished", He by faith saw His resurrection from the dead, where and when He actually finished all the works of God. Ephesians 1:19f proclaims this victory of Christ, and as such is the best explanation of what Jesus meant when He told the thief on the cross he would be with Him in paradise. When in Jesus, a believer is found in paradise and heaven. He shall not see death in all eternity, if he has the Son, but has gone over from death into life.

 

Reply to Camaroso,
God the Father is not restricted to somewhere up there. This earth is as much heaven as any other place in the universe, and is the centre of it because of God's focus in love upon it through His Son. The very throne of God Jesus ascended when He rose from the dead and from the grave on Calvary's hill. It was on the right hand of God, that flung away doorstone.

 

Question???

Why should Jesus need to preach to those folks again??

A careful exegesis will show that Peter is looking backward----to the time of Noah when Jesus preached "through Noah"----Noah may have been the "Bob Vela" of his day---swinging that hammer and sawin' with that saw----but Jesus was Jesus in that day too----and His voice was heard "through Noah"----therefore---no need to go again to preach when they heard it crystal clear the first time!

Brother David

 

Heb 4:2 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.


Heb 4:6-7 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.


1 Pet 4:5-7 5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

All I said was----the gospel was preached through Noah---and the folks back then heard it crystal clear---why is everybody leaving??

 

Blackbird:

1 pet 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

The scripture speaks for itself. Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison. The time that he did that was AFTER he died on the cross and BEFORE he ascended into heaven.

End of story!!

Peace,

Tam