Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Isn't there going to be a great white throne judgement which includes everyone?
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3 groups exist in Mt c.25:32-46: sheep,goats,my brethren
- Thread starter Alfred Persson.
- Start date
Isn't there going to be a great white throne judgement which includes everyone?
>31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Joh 20:31 NKJ
What things? Why "may" and not "will?"
In 1 John the same author teaches that we can only know we have eternal life if we do good works. There is a BIG difference between "knowing one has" and "'having" and "assuming one has."
What things? Why "may" and not "will?"
In 1 John the same author teaches that we can only know we have eternal life if we do good works. There is a BIG difference between "knowing one has" and "'having" and "assuming one has."
Alfred Persson.
New Member
A question is not a point. What are you trying to make of this? State your claim, your point, what you conclude from this, and I'll comment.
If you want to refer to another text as relevant, quote it...allusion doesn't work for me.
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Alfred Persson.
New Member
Not the church, our salvation isn't in question. The judgment the church goes through is to determine rewards, not whether we are saved:
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Joh 5:24 NKJ)
This is a "judgment of the (spiritually) dead" not of the living:
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:11-15 NKJ)
The church is already ruling with Christ as kings and priests, with Christ on the throne. So this the book of life is open to see if some of these, of "the intermediate" can have their names written in the book of life.
The book of life saves no one, its a judgment according to works. If a person repented of their evil, then by undeserved grace (not works), God writes their names in the book of life and they are saved.
If their works prove they love darkness rather than light, they are cast into the lake of fire because of their own sins. God didn't reprobate them there, they earned their place by failing the judgment according to works. Hence John who was watching all this in vision, has it revealed to him that none of those cast into the fire, had their names in the book of life.
God can extend mercy to those who repent, who prove by their works they love light; because the propitiation of Christ covers their sin:
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1Jo 2:2 NKJ)
No one is saved apart from Jesus Christ, "there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Act 4:12 NKJ)
So they are not saved by works...these only proved love of light rather than darkness, then God mercifully saves them by grace. Anyone who met this "minimum standard" of repentance, will be saved. Only the children of the Devil, those who hate light and refuse to repent, or who have sinned eternally in this life (Mat 12:31-32), suffer eternal punishment. They may be many, but as a percentage of the population, likely small.
Even if a believer builds upon the foundation of Christ with doctrines of straw, which cannot withstand the fire of God's inspection, they will suffer loss when its all burned up, but they themselves will be saved:
13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1Co 3:13-15 NKJ)
They will be saved as though they fled a burning house, even the clothes on their backs burned up = no reward; But their salvation is never in doubt.
Eternal security is clearly taught in scripture. But because there are THREE groups of mankind, not only two, some texts which apply to the intermediate (not the elect) who may not have truly believed in this life and so their salvation isn't yet achieved, being they haven't believed...have been misinterpreted by some as teaching the Christians can lose their salvation.
They cannot, they already are seated in heavenly places:
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
(Eph 2:4-10 NKJ)
Its an act of God's creation we are in Christ Jesus, entirely by His power and "not of ourselves," by grace not works.
Those texts that seem to imply a believer could lose his salvation, were written about "the intermediate" group who may not have truly committed themselves to Christ. Once they commit to Christ, their salvation is just as sure as that of the elect, they can't lose it. But some just don't believe sincerely in this life, and so go to hell when they die, and if they repent, will have their spirit saved in the Day of the LORD Jesus:
5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 NKJ)
Paul says "may be saved" not because eternal security is in doubt, but because whether or not this man will repent and believe is in doubt.
So the next time you observe a hypocritical church goer, think of this man.
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Alfred Persson.
New Member
Additional proof this three group outline is relevant to the New Testament is found in those texts implying repentance in Hades is possible.
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ
1Pt 3:18-21 KJV)Had Jesus "proclaimed doom" this would not be a "like figure" to the answer of a good conscience which now saves believers, therefore the concept of the "middling" rising from Hades is explicitly taught.
Compare:
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(Joh 5:28-29 KJV)
>31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Joh 20:31 NKJ
My point is that the statement is neither exclusive nor describing a quid pro quo.
quid pro quo/ˈkwid ˌprō ˈkwō/
Noun:
A favor or advantage granted in return for something: "the pardon was a quid pro quo for their help in releasing hostages".
Synonyms:
recompense - compensation
More info »Wikipedia - Dictionary.com - Answers.com - Merriam-Webster
My point is that the statement is neither exclusive nor describing a quid pro quo.
quid pro quo/ˈkwid ˌprō ˈkwō/
Noun:
A favor or advantage granted in return for something: "the pardon was a quid pro quo for their help in releasing hostages".
Synonyms:
recompense - compensation
More info »Wikipedia - Dictionary.com - Answers.com - Merriam-Webster
Alfred Persson.
New Member
This fixes that:
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (Joh 3:18 NKJ)
Alfred Persson.
New Member
That judgment happens a 1000 years after the church was raptured and reigning as Kings and priests with Christ in His kingdom.
That some are saved by works (who are not the church) is clearly taught by Christ and His apostles, for example in Mat 25:33-40, where works that prove one has unknowingly received Christ also saves.
31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 `for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 `I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 `When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 `Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
(Mat 25:31-40 NKJ)
Clearly this is a third group judged according to works…according to their own conscience:
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. (Rom 2:14-16 NKJ)
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1Jo 2:2 NKJ)
So its not "us only" Christ died for, His sacrifice allows God hear the cases of those who died without Christ, but had proved by their works they didn't hate the light. They just didn't know Christ before they died. These acted well according to their conscience which now excuses them for sins done in ignorance of God's law.
Same here, Judgment Day happens a thousand years after the church has been reigning with Christ as Kings and priests in His kingdom, therefore "the dead" who rise up from Hades are NOT the church:
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. (Rev 20:11-13 NKJ)
Yet the book of life is opened indicating some of these would be written into it, after passing the judgment according to their works.
Had these believed in Christ while alive they would have been raptured or resurrected a 1000 years earlier at Christ's second coming (Revelation 20:4-6; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; Mat 24:29-31; Rev 14:14-16) their salvation wouldn't be in question (John 5:24) now.
But they didn't, they died not believing in Christ therefore they are "the dead" in Hades and Death. AND these are judged just BEFORE they are raised to determine what sort of resurrection body they will be raised in, glorious or abhorrent. (Daniel 12:2-3; Isaiah 66:25; John 5:28-29)
They are the third group, the "intermediate" being neither the elect or the wicked, they are the "average sinners" who, if they prove they would have received Christ into their homes if only they knew He was in need (Mat 25:33-40), are saved by God's grace, because THE propitiation of Christ isn't for "us only", its also for them.
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1Jo 2:2 NKJ)
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
(Joh 5:28-29 NKJ)[/size]
>Some believe Matthew 25:32f proves there are only two groups of mankind, the sheep (righteous) and the goats (unrighteous) But it is beyond reasonable doubt three classes of men can be found in that context.
OK, the elect, those who know they are regenerate, and the ones whom the Bibles specifically names as reprobate. Esau, for example.
OK, the elect, those who know they are regenerate, and the ones whom the Bibles specifically names as reprobate. Esau, for example.
Alfred Persson.
New Member
Esau wasn't reprobate, he was chosen to accomplish a purpose of God on earth, but nothing in that context (or the OT) says he was eternally dammed.
If God literally hated Esau, He had an odd way of showing it:
6 Then Esau took his wives, his sons, his daughters, and all the persons of his household, his cattle and all his animals, and all his goods which he had gained in the land of Canaan, and went to a country away from the presence of his brother Jacob.
7 For their possessions were too great for them to dwell together, and the land where they were strangers could not support them because of their livestock.
(Gen 36:6-7 NKJ)
So eternal election wasn't Paul's point at all:
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), (Rom 9:11 NKJ)
the purpose of God according to election = God's plan according to His sovereign choice
and before they were born, before they had done anything at all, either good or bad (so that God's plan might remain a matter of his sovereign choice, not dependent on what they did, but on God, who does the calling), (Rom 9:11 CJB)
That's why there is no unrighteousness with God, because this isn't saying God reprobates.
Its saying He chooses people to accomplish His will (on earth) regardless whether they deserve to be used that way or not.
The reason why this isn't unjust, is because God can compensate them if need be, in the world to come. But as its clear from Pharaoh's example, who was a willing participant in his own hardening, these are doing what they wanted to and so don't deserve compensation.
The principle of eschatological compensation for injury in this life, is taught in scripture:
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. (Luk 16:25 KJV)
2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
(Mat 5:2-6 KJV)
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. (Joh 9:2-3 KJV)
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