500---5000----where are they?

UnchartedSpirit · Nov 27, 2006

All these "valid historical documents" that prove the life of Jesus to be truer than any other myth before His story in that region....where can I at least get the biblographies to these sources, if they do exist?

rsr · Nov 27, 2006

Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, 20:9.1:

But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as lawbreakers, he delivered them over to be stoned.
Click to expand...

This is generally thought by scholars to be genuine.

Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, 18:3.3.

About this time came Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified, those who had formerly loved him did not cease [to follow him], for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold, along with a myriad of other marvellous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.
Click to expand...

This section, the Testimonium Flavium, is widely disputed and commonly thought to contain, at the least, later Christian interpolations. It is not found in the writings of the early church fathers who did quote Josephus on other matters.

Tacitus, Annals, 15, (writing a half-century of so after the fact):

But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.

Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed.
Click to expand...

Tacitus' observations would have come from contemporary sources, i.e, what Christians said of themselves or Romans said.

Pliny the Younger, writing to the Emperor Trajan (c. 112):

It is my custom, Sire, to refer to you in all cases where I am in doubt, for who can better clear up difficulties and inform me? I have never been present at any legal examination of the Christians, and I do not know, therefore, what are the usual penalties passed upon them, or the limits of those penalties, or how searching an inquiry should be made. I have hesitated a great deal in considering whether any distinctions should be drawn according to the ages of the accused; whether the weak should be punished as severely as the more robust, or whether the man who has once been a Christian gained anything by recanting? Again, whether the name of being a Christian, even though otherwise innocent of crime, should be punished, or only the crimes that gather around it? In the meantime, this is the plan which I have adopted in the case of those Christians who have been brought before me. I ask them whether they are Christians, if they say "Yes," then I repeat the question the second time, and also a third -- warning them of the penalties involved; and if they persist, I order them away to prison. For I do not doubt that -- be their admitted crime what it may -- their pertinacity and inflexible obstinacy surely ought to be punished.
There were others who showed similar mad folly, whom I reserved to be sent to Rome, as they were Roman citizens. Later, as is commonly the case, the mere fact of my entertaining the question led to a multiplying of accusations and a variety of cases were brought before me. An anonymous pamphlet was issued, containing a number of names of alleged Christians. Those who denied that they were or had been Christians and called upon the gods with the usual formula, reciting the words after me, and those who offered incense and wine before your image -- which I had ordered to be brought forward for this purpose, along with the regular statues of the gods -- all such I considered acquitted -- especially as they cursed the name of Christ, which it is said bona fide Christians cannot be induced to do.
Still others there were, whose names were supplied by an informer. These first said they were Christians, then denied it, insisting they had been, "but were so no longer"; some of them having "recanted many years ago," and more than one "full twenty years back." These all worshiped your image and the god's statues and cursed the name of Christ.
But they declared their guilt or error was simply this -- on a fixed day they used to meet before dawn and recite a hymn among themselves to Christ, as though he were a god. So far from binding themselves by oath to commit any crime, they swore to keep from theft, robbery, adultery, breach of faith, and not to deny any trust money deposited with them when called upon to deliver it. This ceremony over, they used to depart and meet again to take food -- but it was of no special character, and entirely harmless. They also had ceased from this practice after the edict I issued -- by which, in accord with your orders, I forbade all secret societies.
I then thought it the more needful to get at the facts behind their statements. Therefore I placed two women, called "deaconesses," under torture, but I found only a debased superstition carried to great lengths, so I postponed my examination, and immediately consulted you. This seems a matter worthy of your prompt consideration, especially as so many people are endangered. Many of all ages and both sexes are put in peril of their lives by their accusers; and the process will go on, for the contagion of this superstition has spread not merely through the free towns, but into the villages and farms. Still I think it can be halted and things set right. Beyond any doubt, the temples -- which were nigh deserted -- are beginning again to be thronged with worshipers; the sacred rites, which long have lapsed, are now being renewed, and the food for the sacrificial victims is again finding a sale -- though up to recently it had almost no market. So one can safely infer how vast numbers could be reclaimed, if only there were a chance given for repentance.
Click to expand...

Pliny is repeating what he has been told about Christian beliefs about 80 years after the resurrection.

Suetonius, Lives of the Caesars, c. 120:

Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he (the Emperor Claudius) expelled them from Rome.
Click to expand...

This is often taken as a reference to Christ. Many dispute the reference, claiming Chrestus (useful) was a common given name for slaves and indicated a troublesome slave disturbance.

Thallus, contemporary of Christ, through Julian Africanus (late second century, early third century) through Eusebius (third century): There is a reference to darkness and earthquakes at the crucifixion.

An interesting site is http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/jesusexisthub.html. I have not read all the information, but it seems to be fairly exhaustive in its treatment of the evidence.

Grasshopper · Nov 28, 2006

http://www.bible-history.com/links.php?cat=19&sub=89&cat_name=Jesus&subcat_name=Historical+Evidence

Gold Dragon · Nov 29, 2006

UnchartedSpirit said:

All these "valid historical documents" that prove the life of Jesus to be truer than any other myth before His story in that region....where can I at least get the biblographies to these sources, if they do exist?
Click to expand...

The list the rsr quoted is a pretty comprehensive list of the non-Christian historians who made some reference to Christ.

The Jewish historian Josephus is our most elaborate source, but since our surviving manuscripts of his work come to us through the RCC and some of the statements appear to be overly supportive of Christianity for a Jew, skeptics wonder about the authenticity of the manuscripts.

Tacitus, Pliny, Suetonius and Thallus made references to Christians and possibly Christ.

The remaining historical documents are Christian sources such as the biblical writings and other early christian writings.

UnchartedSpirit · Nov 30, 2006

thanks for all of this guys...I can't keep up with apolgetics so I just want to send anyone who wants to argue to these sites and wait for then they want to dicuss where their life is going....

500---5000----where are they?

UnchartedSpirit New Member

rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
Moderator

Grasshopper Active Member
Site Supporter

Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

UnchartedSpirit New Member

Useful Searches

500---5000----where are they?

UnchartedSpirit New Member

rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b> Moderator

Grasshopper Active Member Site Supporter

Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

UnchartedSpirit New Member

rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
Moderator

Grasshopper Active Member
Site Supporter