7-11 vs. Modern

Personally, there are some songs that go over and over and over again. As a worship leader, however, I also have to be sensitive to the fact that the Spirit may be moving and I must continue the song.

The vast, vast majority of praise and worship music are NOT 7-11 songs. This is a characterization made by those who do not know enough about the Christian worship music that is out there. Only a infintesimal number of songs would fall under the 7-11 category.

(And One Day was awesome! I didn't go, but I have the DVD!)

 

I think the "7-11" phrase is © Dr Bob

My 2¢ on the topic:

I do not take "7" to mean that every song has to be an exposition on 4 major doctrines written by a team of Th.D.s.

Take Handel's Hallelujah Chorus from Messiah: Hallelujah, for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth, the kingdom of this world is become the Kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever, King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Or for a modern example, Geoff Bullock's Blessing Honour: Blessing, honour, glory to the Lamb, Holy, righteous, worthy is the Lamb. Death could not hold Him down, for He is risen, seated upon the throne, He is the Lamb of God.

The Hallelujah Chorus has 26 different words, Blessing Honour has 24, and both are great examples of how to write a song No I am not going to count how many different words Isaac Watts or Charles Wesley used in their songs, but they knew how to do it too

The problem comes with the endless streams of songs that resulted from a voyage through the valley of the vague...I call them "I Love My Cat" songs. I forget where I originally posted this, so here it is again. An example of an "I Love My Cat" song: "In the middle of the darkest nights, I hear you calling me, asking me to let you in, I open my door, and your soft warm presence comes to dwell with me...Though of course you know this song is for you, I think for once I should mention you too...Soooo... Here kitty-kitty-kitty... Here kitty-kitty-kitty..." The style sound familiar?

"11"..All together now..."This is the song that never ends, It just goes on and on my friends, Some people started singing it not knowing what it was, And they’ll continue singing it forever just because, This is the song that never ends...."

Example that comes to mind: Shout To The Lord is probably one of the better new songs, it has more words than 7 anyway The first time I heard it at a Church it was well on the way to hitting the "11" part...it was done at least (no exaggeration) 7 or 8 times. While I was still at that Church it was hardly out of the playlist.

Not at all, here are some Hillsongs I think can match it with the best of older songs: Holy One Of God, Jesus You Gave It All, In The Silence, Lord Of All, Lord Of The Heavens, Glory. Funnily enough, I have not had chance to play any of these at Church..go figure If I did play them at Church I'ld put guitar down after second time through and ask for something else

Pete

 

It depends on two things.

1. The makeup of the song, it's quality of words and whether there is vain repetion - I'd say this matters for about 20% of the final judgment whether it is "7-11."

2. Who is doing the judging. Are they traditionalists who can't stand anything other then hymns that are at least 50 years old? Well then they'll judge virtually all praise and worship song as 7-11. Are they people who totally love the P&W songs? Well then they'll rarely judge a song as 7-11 because they realize that often it is not the song that is the problem but the people leading the worship. I would say that this makes up 80% of the final judgment on whether a song is "7-11."

You'll see stuff like the overly exaggerated "I love my Cat" argument, but that's really just grasping for straws. I can guarantee that the people who are singing the songs know exactly who they are singing to. What does it matter if some clueless person picked up the words and didn't know who they are about? And believe me, it would take a very clueless person not to know. Well, clueless or ignorant.

If you look into this enough, you'll see the other popular criticism of P&W, which is the lack of "doctrinal depth" that the P&W songs have(cleverly disguised in this 7 words notion). Another weak argument. These songs aren't being sung so the people can learn the intricacies of Calvinism. Their purpose is simple: to praise and worship God in a way that everyone can easily participate in with everything they are, and yes, even enjoy doing it. By the way, the hymns also don't teach much about doctrine. Tell me what doctrinal truth you've learned from singing A Mighty Fortress is Our God? Yeah, didn't think so.

Oops, hope I didn't go to far OT. God bless,
`JD

 

Brilliant, thanks for that Pete.

 

What were the songs? It would help to know exactly what songs are so much trouble.

The songs say exactly what needs to be said. Simple praise songs to God. We already have a couple hundred years of overcomplicated theological mutterings that mean absolutely nothing to many Christians. If we want more of them we'll simple translate the old ones into modern English with modern music. So instead we'll put our effort into writing what we don't have: Vertical worship songs that are easy to sing and understand while involving our hearts, souls, stength, and minds.

 

Joshua, I was jack of all trades at last Church mate, did song-picking and guitar in service there...Amongst a dozen other things..

As mentioned on other thread I am "just" (for lack of a better word) in Sunday school at the moment

Yep mate, I caught that just before I crashed out last night, was a bit tired to reply straight away after work Sort of the same deal now, just doing a bit before I turn in.

Mate, I don't think the verse I wrote for "I Love My Cat" is exaggerated next to the standard of some of today's songs. If I added a couple of nice 2/4/6 chords behind it on guitar I think there would be a lot who would sing it as a "worship chorus." Move over Handel...

I never said they didn't, just pointing out that I could sing the same thing to my GF (if I had one), or our cat (if he was worth singing to..)

Look at Blessing Honour I quoted above mate (if it is not too out-dated now, being 13 years old)...Only 24 different words in it, yet what a solid little song. Now why sing any old "I Love My Cat" thing when it is possible to write something like Blessing Honour?

One exposition of A Mighty Fortress Is Our God coming up...After some sleep

Thanks enda, just don't hurt yourself laughing there

Dr Bob, even when I re-read it I don't know wether to laugh or cry...

Another job for when I wake up this arvo, I'll dig up some examples.

I have nothing against simple praise songs to God (Blessing Honour, He Is Lord, etc), however simple praise songs to cats (or whatever..)..Pass

hmmm sounds to me like more of a problem with the Christians than with the songs? How do they handle sermons? Studies? Or has preaching and teaching turned to expounding the virtues of felis domesticas as some of the songs seem to have done?

I'm not too old a ratbag (34 in July), I don't think Isaac Watts' or Charles Wesley's songs need translating...

Pete

 

One of the funniest things about A Mighty Fortress is Our God that I've ever seen is when a choir used it as a call to worship. However, they just used the first verse, which ends, "For still our ancient foe doth seek to work us woe; His craft and power are great, and, armed with cruel hate, On earth is not his equal."

What a blessed way to begin a service, talking about Satan and all.

I thought it was funny myself.

SEC

 

Such as?

Sure you could, if you believed your cat was God. Of course you would have to skip over many lyrics if you didn't want to be sleeping in a nice white room with padded walls.

Different songs for different purposes. I would have no problem singing either song. The problem is when we take one example and say that every song should be like that one. Why can't we have more then one type of song, more then one type of music? Why should all songs be in the mold of the hymns, why not in the mold of the Psalms?

Once again you haven't posted these cats songs. If I had a problem with singing a song that could easily be sung to Allah I would refuse to sing Amazing Grace. But no one ever complains about Amazing Grace...

I think it might be helpful to update a couple words here or there, maybe rearrange them so they make sense in today's language. As it is they can be rather hard to follow, especially if you're singing them at the time because you can't exactly split your concentration to translate them into modern English.

 

Oh I know. I was using that more in response to Dr. Bob's inflamatory "drivvel" statement. I actually enjoy many hymns, and when I do have problems with them it's usually because of the funeral music that is being played with them. I've heard a couple hymns put to new music and they were absolutely fantastic. I generally take a more hardline anti-hymn stance on this board to counteract the hardline anti-P&W stance that some on this board have. But really I think they both belong.

I think that is the absolute right approach. Limiting the style of music and songs to one type is pointless. Even if some won't admit it there is some spectacular music in both Hymns and praise and worship, so why not use them all? We were not instructed to sing with one type of song, but three. Apparently God doesn't give Hymns or any other type of song a monopoly on glorifying him.

 

Bump, still waiting for specific examples of all these "kitty" songs. Shouldn't be hard since there's so many of them...

 

Since you guys seem to be having trouble finding examples of the "drivvel" and "kitty" songs that makes up praise and worship music, I thought I would help you out. This is CCLI's top 25 songs list from their latest poll. These are the most popular worship songs, so I'm sure you can find what you're looking for in here:

Lord I Lift Your Name On High
Shout To The Lord
Open The Eyes Of My Heart
Come Now Is The Time To Worship
Breathe
You Are My All In All
As The Deer
I Love You Lord
I Could Sing Of Your Love Forever
Awesome God
The Heart Of Worship
Shine Jesus Shine
Majesty
Trading My Sorrows
Change My Heart Oh God
You Are My King
Sanctuary
Draw Me Close
Above All
My Life Is In You
Give Thanks
He Is Exalted
Better Is One Day
We Fall Down
He Has Made Me Glad


Enjoy. I hope you will be blessed by the lyrics you find in your search.

`JD

 

I have not been one to jump on the "here kitty, kitty" bandwagon. But, "Draw Me Close", would probably be a good example of what the "here kitty, kitty" songs sound like. You could stick in "fetch, fido, fetch" or "Oh, your my girl."

On the other hand, the song was probably written from the heart and has a strong tie between writer and the Lord. But, many songs written out of private worship are not always easily understood in public worship.