A Biblical Understanding of Sin

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Mman: OK, I think we agree, that without the gospel, men are lost, therefore, the gospel should be preached to all nations and every person (Matt 28:18-20, Mark 16:15-16).

So I guess our differences are surrounding Saul/Paul, and was he an exception? He had heard the gospel (certainly parts of it) and rejected it. He tried to force others to blaspheme, even though he was sincere. Saul classified himself as the chief of sinners.

HP: I see Saul as a clear exception. Who can testify that before they became a Christian they kept the law blameless? Who could stand before the religious leaders as Paul did and testify as he did? Ac 23:1 ¶ And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.” That I would see as a clear exception.

As to Paul hearing the gospel? Only God knows. Obviously he had heard of Christ, but it would seem to me that he might not have actually heard the gospel message at all. I believe he was simply ignorant of the true gospel. He thought he was ‘of the faith.’ To him there was no other gospel. The idea was totally foreign to him as a devout Jew. They ‘were the chosen.’ To them there was ‘no other way conceivable.’ The patriarchs were not part of any other religion. The Jewish religion was ‘it.’ The gospel coming from a bunch of Gentiles, and those outside of or that had renounced the ‘only True and Living God of Moses, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? How preposterous to believe any other gospel could come from God than what Judaism believed and taught! To even entertain such a notion was tantamount to rejection of the Only True and Living God in his eyes, i.e., Jehovah God of the Jews.

Mman: Here is the passage again that is in question:

I Tim 1:12-16 I thank him who has given me strength, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he judged me faithful, appointing me to his service, though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life.
Did God force Saul to believe in Him? Did God force Saul to go preach the gospel? Did Saul have free will?

Saul had his free will. Yet God knew his character. When Saul was confronted, he was not disobedient to God (Acts 26:19). Saul had heard about Jesus and rejected the message. Saul had the writings of Moses and the propehets, yet did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah, based on what he knew. Jesus's great mercy and patience judged Saul, a man of character even though he was persecuting Jesus from a sincere heart, faithful for His service. Saul had a choice, but when confronted with the truth, changed his life and started serving the one he formerly persecuted.

The mercy that was given him was not an overlooking of his past sins, but an opportunity for him to be appointed to a very special service.

HP: I would say that God did not overlook any past sins, for as far as I read Scripture and his own testimony there were none to overlook. Once God gave him additional light, NOW, IN RETROSPECT, there was sin imputed to his former actions. Now there was need to repent and seek forgiveness, and he did.

Mman: The last sentence proves that the mercy shown to Saul was not an overlooking of his past sins or sins done in ignorance.

HP: I hope that I am not just blind to what you see, but I see no ‘proof’ offered by the text that would indicate anything about God imputing sin to any of Paul’s action prior to God’s private talk with him. I do see sin imputed to his actions only in retrospect, with the new light God gave him. No knowledge, no sin, is the Scriptural principle. Sin is not imputed where there is no law. Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

 

[gekko]

HP: I thought you believed sin was a contagion, passed on from Adam to us, and that we are sinners from birth? What law does a new born baby transgress?

I hope I correctly represented your beliefs. Please forgive me if I misrepresented them in any way.

mmhmm. if someone says to you that they have been homosexual since birth - do you agree or disagree?

i agree. we are born into sin. no?

are babies selfish when it comes to their toys? i believe so. is selfishness a sin? i believe so.

Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 5:15 - But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Romans 5:17 - For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Romans 5:19 - For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Hi Gekko,
You mention too many verses to even start to respond in a post to them all. Each one presents a whole different scope of ideas. Let me just take the first one for now. Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

This verse says that sin entered the world by one man. Now that is simple enough. That death came by sin, now it becomes a bit more complex. Is Scripture saying that physical death came by sin, or the timing of it? Is there any indication in Scripture that Adam would have not have seen physical death or at least a cessation of physical life such as being translated like Enoch or Elijah if in fact he had never sinned? Adam was created as a mortal human being. Mortals must put on immortality, according to Scripture, in order to take on an eternal existence. That would incur a change from the physical to the spiritual. The necessitated cessation of a physical existence could be termed as physical death could it not?

I believe that the death spoken of here must then be speaking of spiritual death, not physical death. (Now for all of you holding to the literal payment theory, here is a thought for you. If Christ literally took upon himself the penalty of sin, and that penalty included physical death, why do Christians still die? More over, why will some not see death in the rapture? How could have Christ literally paid for something that still is occurring with Christians ? ) (Please forgive this sidetrack from the issue of this thread. No one ned respond to that issue here, just food for thought )

Due to the fact of those in the rapture, and Enoch and Elijah not seeing physical death as we know it, this verse cannot be speaking of physical death, but rather spiritual; death. The death spoken of is said to pass upon ALL men that have sinned, not just some. Spiritual death indeed passed upon all men at the point of sin. You decide for yourselves the truth of this matter.

This particular verse also states clearly WHY this spiritual death has passed upon all men, and it does not say because of original sin, or Adam’s sin. It states BECAUSE ‘ALL HAVE SIINED.’

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 5
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned
13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Death spreads to ALL mankind for ALL sin EVEN those who did not sin in the likeness of Adam’s offence.

I.E Infants NEED a savior. But they have one – so they are fine.


All of Calvinism’s favorite words to redefine – are here. WORLD, ALL MEN etc. And who can argue that ALL have sinned (not just the “elect”)?? Who can argue that the WORLD really does Not mean the Whole World has fallen under the domain of sin – for All have sinned. God appears to be using very “Arminian” terms here – once again.

Though it is granted that it can be shown “in some contexts” that “World” is specifically speaking of the “World of unsaved people”. (yet “never” can it be shown that the “world” means “all the saved people” for never does the Bible say “The World is saved” or “The Whole World will one day be saved”.)

Romans 5
15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

The Same all-encompassing Many that were lost because of the one fall of the one man Adam are benefited by the One man Christ!!!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

The nature of sin, as we have seen on many other threads as of late, is indeed important. The issue of original sin has been raised. Would someone like to show how the notion of original sin is in any way consistent with the definitions and illustrations of sin in Scripture? I am simply asking for those that might believe in original sin to document where and how such a notion is consistent with other clear passages in Scripture informing us as to the definition(s) of sin.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I wish to thank everyone that has been involved in this thread for their participation. I am going to have to apply myself to some other tasks at hand and will not be able to keep up the level of involvement I have had in the past. I hope to be able to respond at least a little in the future.

May God richly bless each and every one of you!! Until we meet again, may the peace of God dwell within each and everyone richly!

Heavenly Pilgrim