A Conversation between a Calvinist and a non-Arminian

To All of which Jesus said,

Works don't bring salvation, belief in Jesus, even on his name, brings Salvation...God said so!

 

It is always a sad thing when an individual uses scripture for the purpose of sloganeering for their pet position. Demans the Word.

Aki,

There are a few mistakes in your conversation, things that a Calvanist would not say.

For example, A calvanist would not say that Jesus did not die for all sinners.

Nor would a calvanist be stumped about the idea of peopel bveing condemned for the sins of one person (Adam) after all, it has a counterpart in the work of one pers, Christ. And double predestination is certainly not required.

I would also point out that the convicting mnistry of the Spirit is what Calvanist might call the general call, whcih humans universally reject.

I would also say that your presentation does not do a good job of distinguising between justifcation by faith as a matter of God's grace, and judgment based on works.

 

Are you sure? Isn't this just Limited Atonement?

Jacob.

 

Besides the misrepresentations of Calvinism in this conversation their is one other thing that is very unrealistic.

The Arminian refers to scripture more than the Calvinist.

Now that is just unbelievable!!!

 

Are you sure? Isn't this just Limited Atonement?

Jacob.</font>[/QUOTE]I am sure. LA is about the limits of the application of the atonement.

 

Are you sure? Isn't this just Limited Atonement?

Jacob.</font>[/QUOTE]I am sure. LA is about the limits of the application of the atonement.</font>[/QUOTE]Most of the Calvinists that I know would say something like "Jesus died to save sinners" but never would they insert the word "ALL" in there because they believe that Jesus only died for ELECT sinners.

Jacob.

 

Tis amazing that no one payed any attention to "Part 2 of 2" - there appears to be a lot of selective reading among Calvinists. I take that back, Yelsew appears to have read the second part and says “Works don't bring salvation, belief in Jesus, even on his name, brings Salvation...God said so!” Yelsew, are you accusing Aki of saying that works save? Perhaps you also were reading selectively and missed the statement “thus they are judged according to their works, which are works they do to deserve eternal life. but, of course, they do not pass.”

[ January 25, 2003, 04:07 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]

 

Latreia,
What Scriptural proof can you give for your statement that: "the convicting mnistry (sic) of the Spirit is what Calvanist might call the general call, whcih (sic) humans universally reject."? Particularly, where in the Holy Word does it say the Holy Spirit's convicting work is UNIVERSALLY rejected?

 

You misunderstand.

I am not saying that grace is resistable. I am saying that what Arminians call the Spirit's convicting work is analogous to what Calvanists call the General Call. Any Scripture an arminian would use to say that the gospel is for all people is one we would use to support a general call.

The general cal is universally rejected. That's why we have an effectual call.

 

If Aki is saying that, the scriptures refute him and not I. I believe that every man's works will be judged, but not unto salvation. Scripture never reveals works as the means of having ones name written in the lambs book of life or keeping one from being thrown into the lake of fire. Works are not part of the salvation equation.

On the topic of Grace, I suggest that it is not God's grace that is irresistible, but rather the Gospel message. Grace, however, is present and enables the hearing of the Gospel.

Grace it seems is silent, but gets credit for every good thing. And an apparent 'mysterious absence' of Grace is credited for every evil or bad thing. Grace really gets a bad rap by those who do not know or understand what Grace really is.

So many think that Grace is the active ingredient in God's formula for the redemption of man. Truly it is an essential, but not the active ingredient. Grace is the medium in which the active ingredient is transferred. For faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God!

It is faith in God that grace enables, but it is the word of God that is irresistible.

Grace is not the messenger
Grace is not the message
Grace is not the vehicle
Grace is not Salvation
Grace is not even the facilitator, that's the work of the Holy Spirit!

Grace may be, perhaps, the "restrainer" spoken of by Paul in 2 Th 2:6 "And you know, too, what is still holding him back from appearing before his appointed time". Once God removes (stops behaving in accordance with) his Grace, his Justice will increase to the level of his "pent up wrath toward his sinful creation" and woe unto those who refused redemption.

I thank God for his Grace that enabled me to be able to hear his eternal life giving message, that I found so irresistible.

 

Latreia,

I didn't imply that you believed "grace was resistable". That's not what I asked. I asked for Scriptural support that the CONVICTING work of the Holy Spirit (which is itself an act of grace) UNIVERSALLY rejected? Or if you want to say that, according to Calvinism:
"Holy Spirit's Conviction = General Call",
where is the Scriptural proof that the "General Call" is UNIVERSALLY rejected (ie rejected by everyone)?

 

DT,

Pardon me for misunderstanding you.

Again, I am not saying what it is you suppose. I am saying that the way that Arminians use the phrase convicting work of the Spirit is roughly analogous in Calvanist thought to the General Call. In Calvanism the General Call is universally rejected.

As for scritural support, scripture teaches that only thode whom God calls to salvation are saved (see for example Jn. 6:37). But Jesus made calls to people that were rejected, like whn he was in crowds. Therefore thse kinds of general calls cannot be the kind of call that draws one to Christ. Hence the effectual call. The Spirit is in the effectual call in a way that He is not in the general call, since the spirit leads people to repentance (Ro. 8:14, see also 1Peter 5:10).

Tied into this of course is the doctrine of Total Depravity (see fro example Romans 1-3). People are unable to respond to God unless he grants them to do so, so enslaved by sin are they. Since the general call is not the medium by which that happens, it is univerally rejected.

 

Works don't bring salvation, belief in Jesus, even on his name, brings Salvation...God said so!</font>[/QUOTE]For context, in the very same passage:

So Jesus uses the analogy of birth to set the context for vss. 16-18. Do we choose to be born?

 

No, but we do choose to be "born-again" as Jesus commanded that we do.
-------------------------
Hey! Where'd Joe go?

Oh! God took 'im to be born again!

Oh! Well who's gonna fill his spot on the bowlin' team?
---------------------
No, it doesn't work that way, the same physical Joe remains among us before during and after being "born-again". He's just different in behavior and demeanor. Yes, he may drop off the bowlin' team, or not...that is inconsequential. What matters is that he has a new nature, his essence is changed, and he is now gonna live forever.

 

Agreed AKI.

I do take exception to the concept of "Grace through faith" however. It is faith acquired while grace prevails that saves.